I’m having a hard time deciding how to process the record set by Grinnell point guard David Arseneault. He was credited with 34 assists in the Pioneers’ 151-112 blowout of North Central (Minn.), a team barely in Division III and 1-5 against a schedule consisting primarily of bible schools and members of the UMAC, probably the worst conference in D-III.
If this were at all achieved within the normal framework of a basketball game, I’d be thrilled and you wouldn’t be reading this blog. But as you may have read on the front page, Arseneault played 38 minutes, perhaps the norm for a top-notch point guard but nowhere near normal for a System player. Here’s how much coach Dave Arseneault played his son through the first seven games: 17 minutes, 22, 19, 21, 20, 23, with 27 minutes in the most recent contest before Saturday.
Then there’s what was said afterward:
“Coming into the game we had a game plan looking to get John Grotberg a lot of points, and maybe me getting the assists record in the process while also getting Keith Chamberlain some points,” Arseneault explained. “Everything went well. At halftime we looked at the situation and said we’ll give it a further shot, and everything turned out.”
Is that what basketball is reduced to? Trying to get someone a record? Taking advantage of a bad team to get your name in the record books?
I’m not sure this is so much better than what Lincoln did to Ohio State-Marion last December, scoring 201 points.
At least those numbers are on the scoreboard, for everyone to see. Assists are a matter of rulebook interpretation, and trust me, awarding of assists vary widely.
“They were keeping track on the bench,” he said. “Sometimes when a group came on the court they’d tell me how close I was.”
And then he stayed on the floor after assist No. 27. And 28, etc. That’s what bothers me — we make a mockery of the record book, push a great performance by Robert James of Kean on March 11, 1989, onto history’s recycle bin.
March is a great time to set a record. You know it has to be in a meaningful performance, in a game that means everything.
Not a game where the goal is to run up as big a stat line as possible.
old man,
I’ve seen the system before, run by a different team. I, in no way intended to bash it – I actually find it pretty interesting. I understand both sides of the sportsmanship argument here, but what I can’t understand is the hate directed at the system itself. If you don’t think it’s a good basketball strategy, fine. That doesn’t mean no one should run it. If a strategy does not work for a given team, eventually it will be abandoned.
I stayed quiet on this issue until the statisticians’ manual was brought up. The purpose of my post is to point out that the manual covers a scenario in which two players are alone at the offensive end of the court and one receives an outlet pass and then passes to the other player on the offensive end. In such a case, the assist should actually go to the guy throwing the outlet pass and not the receiver of the outlet pass (who then passes to the other unguarded player already at the offensive end).
After reading through the play-by-play of the game, I found a couple spots where this may or may not have happened (mostly following defensive rebounds off North Central misses), but not enough to change the fact that the record was broken, so my post is fairly moot when applied to this instance.
In general, however, the spirit of the statisticians’ manual is that the stats should not reflect a contrived (beyond a reasonable doubt) effort to achieve certain numbers. A deiiberate, planned effort is fine. That’s up to the other team to try to stop from happening – and is, after further review, what is most likely to have happened here.
A contrived effort, no. This is also why if a player purposefully throws the ball off the backboard twice all alone on the offensive end and then scores, the manual instructs that he or she is to be credited with one field goal attempt and one field goal made and not three attempts, one make, and two offensive rebounds.
I agree with you wacsid. The time that women’s college team let the girl with a broken leg score a basket to start the game so that she could break a scoring record… that was totally out of line and shouldn’t count. It marrs the record of the people before who achieved within their system of play… because it was manufactured out of the realm of something that could happen in a regular game. What we’re looking at here isn’t some “contrived record,” it’s what really should be regarded as a statistical anomoly (outlier anyone?) brought about by the system of play.
The problem with the “broken leg” basket was that, when it comes to scoring, if the points are awarded by the official, you have to credit someone with scoring them. The statisticians’ and recordkeepers’ hands are pretty tied when it comes to points scored and baskets made.
Anomalies are probably the best way to put a lot of the numbers produced when Grinnell plays (when compared to the average college basketball game). It seems offensive anomalies are what really catch people’s attention (both good and bad) – every year there are teams near the top of the pack in scoring defense whose slow-down style on offense has as much or more to do with their opponents not scoring as their actual defense does.
As a stats guy, I’ll say that stats in basketball can tell a good chunk of the story (though not all of it). Some of our traditional measures of ranking offense and defense, however, don’t take into account things like, pace, points per possession, etc. Just as Grinnell isn’t as effective offensively as their scoring average would indicate, they certainly aren’t as bad defensively as their opponents’ scoring average would indicate either. It’s in extreme cases like Grinnell where the shortcomings of traditional statistics are really brought to light.
“old man Says:
December 13th, 2007 at 10:53 am What we’re looking at here isn’t some “contrived record,” it’s what really should be regarded as a statistical anomoly (outlier anyone?) brought about by the system of play.”
i disagree completely…a “contrived record” is EXACTLY what this is – see the definition of contrived below and then see the comments from coach arsenault regarding their game plan and goals for this game
“con·trived (kn-trvd) adj. Obviously planned or calculated; not spontaneous or natural; labored:”
OK … I could get into this argument, but I’ve already determined people are going to believe what they wish to believe and nothing I say will change that.
What I can tell you, after witnessing the game, is David several times penetrated, drew the defender and wisely popped the ball out to a man for the 3-point shot. Early on the shots weren’t falling, either, so 34 assists could have been 40. And, as mentioned, he did what a point guard is supposed to do … distribute the ball. When you score 151 points, there are bound to be a few assists, aren’t there?
And as he humbly mentioned, the pressure wasn’t on him but instead on the shooters as their shots had to fall (which they eventually did) since they had to make the shots.
Also note that David scored 22 points … uh, pretty balanced effort on his part, I’d say. A little more than just a guy who can pass the ball, huh?
And anyone bashing the system also needs to know that this is a team that would be winning a lot of games playing any style. They’re probably one of the more talented Grinnell teams in quite some time.
OK, so now you can all have your shot at me … conjure up the spirits of James Naismith and the peach basket and everything. But, I’ve spoken my peace.
whatzthefuss – clearly you’re a fan of the system and you think that all of david arsenault’s assists were legit…what are your thoughts about the subject at hand…the fact that the coach intentionally game planned to set an individual record against an inferior team – do you feel that’s a sportsmanlike thing to do? are you as proud of the coach as you are the player?
monarchfan? From Denison, by chance?
Anyway, I appreciate the fact that you offer me questions and chance for comment without attacking my reasoning.
Here’s a scenario I’d like to offer, and tell me if it is similar … not being a smart-aleck, but just wondering:
I’m running the 3200-meter run at an indoor track meet. On a 200-meter indoor track, and me being a pretty good runner, I’m going to lap a lot of people in the process.
Anyway, I know the school record for the 3200 is 9:31 and also know I’m capable of breaking it. Anyway, as my splits are adding up and I’m cruising around the track with no competition, I realize the school record is not only possible, but will be broken without a problem.
So, my thoughts (as my coach yells to me) are to go for the state indoor record of 9:12 … I continue to push myself, lap by lap, lapping guys all the time. The splits are in place and it looks like my day … with one lap to go I’m on pace to barely beat the state record.
At this point do I:
A) Think about all these poor people I’m passing and say, “No, I don’t deserve the record … I’m going to start walking” and therefore preserve the state indoor record.
B) I’m not only going to get the record, I’m going to SHATTER it by running this last lap in my fastest split of the day … if it works out, I’ll run 9:06!!
Any thoughts?
I think it doesn’t work in an individual event.
whatzthefuss – i’m not from denison, but there are only 2 d3 teams nicknamed the monarchs (and 3 ncaa teams nationally…and denison isn’t one of them), so you’ve got a 50/50 chance…hint: i’m south of the mason-dixon line
as pat coleman says, your illustration simply doesn’t work – it’s an individual sport in which breaking personal, school, conference and national records is the norm, expected and encouraged
find me another example in a team sport in which the coach says going in “we’re going to win this game handily, so to motivate you guys and make this fun, let’s see if we can break some individual records” and i’ll tell you i disagree with THAT example, as well
Here’s an example monarchfan:
Baseball team A is playing against baseball team B.
Team A is winning 20-0 in the third inning. Their pitcher is throwing a perfect game. It is the last game before a long layoff for the team and the pitcher needs to get his work in. Do you:
a) remove pitcher A because he is dominating this team
b) require the opposition to simply hit the pitcher
c) ask the pitcher to toss up a couple of beach balls
Same situation: you are a batter. Do you
a) strike out on purpose, making the game go faster?
b) continue to take good at bats, in order to keep up your batting average?
I can tell you 100% with confidence that in the baseball example (a team sport) that coaches will not tell their players to stop pitching or hitting. It is up to the opposition to get people out. Teams don’t pinch hit for someone that is 5-5 with 5 home runs. They let him hit again… regardless of score. Teams don’t substitute for a pitcher with a no-hitter.
Interesting scenario but not reflective of the case at hand. Remember the quotes say this was premeditated, before the game started.
So Team A is scheduled to play Team B. Team A decides to start its No. 1 starter, even though it knows Team B is overmatched, with the express intent of him attempting to throw a perfect game. That’s the situation.
Alumni says: “So Team A is scheduled to play Team B. Team A decides to start its No. 1 starter, even though it knows Team B is overmatched, with the express intent of him attempting to throw a perfect game. That’s the situation.”
My point, alumni, is that this happens all the time in college baseball. The point being that throwing a perfect game, no-hitter, etc is about roughly equal to getting 34 assists. It’s so hard to do that premeditating it hardly guarantees or even means it’s possible.
Is that true? Because nobody had ever had 34 assists, or even 27 before this game. I’m certain someone has thrown a perfect game before now.
Still not really relevant. After all, in baseball, there’s one position where there’s a rotation and a pecking order of players who start, and when one starts, generally others in the rotation don’t play.
OK … so the argument against what I said a few posts back is that it’s an individual event so you don’t hold it to the same standards.
What if I’m running the 4×800 relay (not an individual event … four teammates working together) and before the race we get together and say, “Let’s not only bury the competition, but break the state record in the process”?
Team event … pre-meditated … seems to meet the criteria, doesn’t it?
oldman – i would say that if team a throws their #1 against an obviously inferior team and leaves him in pitching a no-no, i would be very critical of that coach – if that coach left his #1 in the ball game up 20-0, i would be EQUALLY critical of that coach
a few years back, methodist played st. paul’s college out of virginia in baseball – despite being a d2, st. paul’s has a HORRIBLE baseball team, but there is some connection between the coaches at mu and spc, so the game was played – the monarchs started a frosh who made a grand total of 3 appearances that year (9 ip total) and he had a no-hitter with 12 strikeouts and 1 walk through 5 innings with the monarchs up 12-0…and was pulled – the monarchs also stopped taking more than one base at a time in the 5th inning – two other freshman finished up the no-hitter with one inning each – the 3 pitchers that pitched that day combined for a total of 16.2 innings on the season and almost half came that day – every healthy position player got an at bat, and even some pitchers hit that day – that’s how you handle a game against an obviously inferior team…you don’t set out at the onset to establish or break individual records
there was also great discussion on the d3baseball boards last year regarding a 57-1 baseball victory, and had i been registered with the blog at that time, i would have chimed in, although i think it’s still very different…you can’t force a team to stop making errors or walking guys – here is that discussion, in case you wondered if that coach was getting similar treatment – http://www.d3sports.com/dailydose/2007/04/10/winning-57-1/
i will also tell you that the mu women’s soccer coach was criticized by opposing fans on d3sports.com in 2006 for a number of lopsided wins (10-0, 10-0, 7-0, 7-0 and 13-0 being the most lopsided scores) – in each of those games the mu coach played with one fewer player than the opponent and had defenders playing in offensive positions and offensive players in defensive positions – he did not ask them to stop shooting, which i agree could and maybe should have been done, but he clearly did everything else that could have been done to keep the game from getting more out of control, and he certainly didn’t come into the game telling the ladies “let’s set some records!” – had he done so, i would have been very critical of that decision
whatzthefuss – the primary difference is that track teams are competing against the clock every bit as much as they are competing against the opponent…i don’t know a single runner who will tell you otherwise…it’s an accepted part of that sport – when you see track results the emphasis is on the TIME and not the OPPONENT