So let’s open the floor up for questions and comments on Bethel at Mount Union and Mary Hardin-Baylor at UW-Whitewater.
A lot of people are expecting a third consecutive all-purple Stagg Bowl. Since the first round of the playoffs, close games have not been the norm. Will we see a great finish on Saturday at either location, or both? What do the Crusaders and Royals have to do to pull the upsets? Why will the Warhawks and Purple Raiders dominate?
Give us your specific thoughts on the matchups, the weather or whatever crosses your mind. And feel free if you’re watching or listening to us to kick in your in-game updates here as well. And as always, enjoy!
Come on CRU fans…give it a break! Let’s not beat up OUR team…they gave it their best effort…that all “I” think we can ask of then. UWW was clearly the best team yesterday. 1st and goal on the 3…and we couldn’t punch it in! The football “gods” favored UWW…what else can be said? I think the CRU coach stated it correctly in the local paper this morning….”we were given a great opportunity and didn’t get it done! That being said I applaud our young men for their effort this year….they are in the top four teams in the nation…way to go CRU!
Gordon:
Wow… how quickly I could forget those YSU/Marshall games. And I forget who mentioned it, but yes, those Penguins were coached by Jim Tressel. He’s still the only coach to win national titles on two levels. Pretty impressive.
Thanks for reminding me about those great match-ups!
Jim Wacker won 4 National Titles: 2 at NAIA-2 Texas Lutheran (1974-75), and 2 at D-II Southwest Texas State, now Texas State – San Marcos, (1981-82).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Wacker
“Isn’t it time for Mount Union to play D2 or better.”
Geez, this AGAIN? Is this the most repetitive, misguided argument in d3football.com history. Is posting this part of a newbie hazing gig?
And, while I think MUC will win in Salem, it wasn’t that long ago that MUC won 66-0 in the semis, and then …
Climbing the Mount is all about recruiting and coaching. Kids that could play DI but wouldn’t start look at Mount as a great alternative. They will play, potentially get some hardware, andsome lifetime memories.
They are coached by a legend and are adored and respected by all the student body, the city of Alliance, etc.
To compete with Mount, develop that same tradition, that same atmosphere, etc. Plus, the football program generates a great alumni base that then donates future dollars to not only athletics but academics aswelland you have a recipe for a long term tradition and potential dynasty.
This is not hype, it is a way of life in Alliance. Could they compete at a D2 or DIA, probably, but not in all sports.
It is not impossible to attain. It just takes time and inexhaustive effort. Look at Whitewater. They were average, played Mount, saw what it took,worked hard, and now are headed to their third Stagg Bowl in a row.
Coincidence? Maybe but maybe not!
Go Raiders!
By the way. My hat’s off to the Bethel players, coaches, and fans. What a class act!
They werecheering for their heroes all game no matter the score. There was no sour grapes, no heads hung low, and, at the conclusion of a whoopin, the team gathered in front of their fans to appreciate a standing ovation!
Yesterday, they were clearly overmatched but they played with class and dignity. You want the makings of a good to great program, look no further than Bethel. They play the game the right way and demonstrate high moral character.
Best of luck to all in the Bethel program. This won’t be your last trip to the national semi-finals. A Stagg appearance is not in your too distant future.
Repete:
The last two years in the semis UWW blew out Wesley while MUC fought it out with SJF and and Rowan. Both times MUC won the game because their starters had been playing every quarter all year long. I think you have a great point. While MUC has had an amazing season, I ask the MUC fans two questions: Have your starters had to keep going for four quarters all season? What happens when they have to play a physical game and the score is close in the second half?
This UWW team has fought hard all season and have never had the opportunity to let down their guard. LK is a great coach and I’m sure he will have his team ready, but IF this one comes down to the wire I think it’s advantage: UWW.
An Aside:
MUC should by no means play in Div. II. They are a powerhouse and a great program that belongs in this division.
I don’t think the MTU starters have played many “Full” games the last decade. They did have some close games in the playoffs the last couple of years, but this year is out of the norm for them. I think they will be OK if it is a close game.
I am expecting a lot more from UWW this year than the past two. Amazing they my Alma Mater is playing my sister’s Alma Mater three years in a row for the Championship.
I would have to agree that I really don’t think Mount’s starters have played a significant amount of minutes less this year than last. It was evident in 2005 that having Kmic with fresh legs made a huge difference in the playoffs, and it appears that LK has made sure he has had fresh legs each of the past two years. 15 games start to take a toll on a body, so I think the fact that Mount’s starters haven’t had to go full strength for 14 straight weeks is a positive.
I am also pretty sure, that with over 200 players fighting for playing time in the Mount system, what they go through at practice every day has them is good enough shape to play as long as they need to.
Raiderdude & wjbtms – I’ve officially ended my questioning how Mount Union would do against mid to top-tier D2 programs after hearing Ralph Turner’s thoughts regarding the subject and I’ve absolutely ended the questioning about how they would do against D1-AA teams (refuse to call it Football Championship Subdivision) after a conversation with K.C. Keeler a couple of weeks ago.
He is the current head coach at Delaware and helped build Rowan into an Eastern power a little while ago. I asked him how he thought a team like Mount Union would do against his team (maybe a bit unfair now that Delaware is playing App “We beat Michigan” State in the championship game). He gave me a look like “are you actually serious”? He said, “my quarterback might get drafted in the 2nd – 4th round……my halfback is being called a poor man’s Brian Westbrook…..the NFL is looking at my tight end, one of my offensive lineman and two of my defensive players”. He said that there might be up to a half dozen players on a top tier D3 program that could fill out the middle to bottom of his roster, but it would be highly doubtful that anybody would crack the starting lineup. K.C. is kind of cocky and would be the first one to tell you that but this is coming from somebody who has coached and recruited at both levels. He made a point about how and why anybody would pass up the chance to start/play at a good quality (athletics and academics) D1-AA program……..while saving mom and dad $200,000 and coming out of school loan free. I know that I would have done it had I been good enough…..I wasn’t!!
Best of luck to Mount and Whitewater next week!!
Dukefinadv,
Thank you. I’ve been trying to voice this argument for the past two years. I’m a Mount alum with close ties to the University of Montana, which is one of the top D-IAA (or whatever) programs in the country. The level of play isn’t even in the same stratosphere. As much as I’m not much of a KC Keeler fan, he is absolutely correct on this topic. Mount is an excellent D-III program. End of story. Could they compete at D-II…maybe. Would they be an upper tier D-II…not a chance. There is a reason players get scholarships……they are bigger, faster, stronger. As you move up through the different divisions, the major differences become how many scholarships you have. Because in the end it all comes down to the depth factor. When Ohio State plays a Youngstown State, the over riding factor is how OSU will eventually wear down YSU. (90 scholarships to 63 is a huge difference). This is typically the case 90% of the time when teams play outside their division.
Two points:
1) Jim Trassel’s father was a very successful college coach at DIII Baldwin-Wallace for many years.
2) What happens when a non scholarship Div IAA program plays a top Div IAA program? Usually it is not much of a game.
Duke, thanks for the KC Keeler info. His coaching at a top-flight Rowan program gives great credibility to those remarks.
If one looks at the MUC dynasty using Principles of Organizational Theory, one can only be amazed that these are (1) the key to the success, (2) something that his players can inculcate as they get real world jobs and (3) something to be copied by almost every other coach in D-III.
I think that we are in for a great Stagg Bowl!
I think its a very good point to make about how (fair/unfair) it has been for Mt. Union to be this dominate for so long. I can’t remember a team at any level being this dominate. There is rumors about App. State moving up to D1A from D1AA. So why doesn’t Mt. Union move up? How competitive is it for your team if you walk into the championship almost every year?
There has to be an obvious recruiting difference b/t Mt. Union and other schools. They probably have one of the best coaches (all divisions) but you have to have talent and they are loaded. Just a quick look at their roster shows they have players from NY, TX, FL, WV, PA, MI, SC, IL, NJ, VA, NC. That seems like a very broad area for recruiting for a D3 team.
Duke:
Very, very interesting insight from Keeler. Thanks for posing those questions and sharing his answers. Incidentally I flew back from Chicago today on a flight that was very full, partly because of the Delaware Hen boosters coming back from the win over Southern Illinois. I wanted to say I followed Keeler at D3 before he was their hero, but didn’t see a graceful way to enter the conversation. 🙂
RunFerrum, if we were talking about MIT’s or CalTech’s physics department or UChicago’s economics department, we would just say that their reputation has attracted the talent, and they are using it to the best advantage of the school and the students.
Because this is football, and these student-athletes are learning from one of the finest coaches in D-III, we should not be judging this any different from physics or economics. (That is why I use the Organizational Theory example.)
How does Coach Kehres inspire and develop men? We use those terms and critical assessments very liberally with respect to lesser coaches than he. Why not learn from him directly, if you are a student-athlete who can see that as part of the education that you wish to get?
We have lots of D-3 grads who are quite successful in professional sports now, e.g., GM of the SuperSonics, head of the NFL. Coach Kehres, Coach Gagliardi and hundreds of others in the coaching profession are the reason that many student-athletes believe that they succeeded.
🙂
mucnash…
I wasn’t trash talking, all I was saying that it will be a tough game for us to win. But
you aren’t one of those cocky MUC fans. Some fans just are “Fools”.
Dang….playing in DIVll has nothing to do with size…just as playing in DIVlll has nothing to do with the size of the school. Now I want to see all the complaining and hollering about Whitewater..Whitewater… Whitewater playing AGAIN….like you all do when Mount Union plays…get over it people…… it just so happens that those two are the BEST of the REST…..Good luck to both WW and Mount for a season well played and a job well done…. For those who keep complaining about Mount going to DIVll..perhpaps you should read the facts and see how the divisions are made in NCAA sports…. And why never any comments about WW going to DIVll At least the DIV have a PlayOff system…..perhaps we should do what the Big Dogs do…get serious!
Runferrum
Most of Mt. Unions starters are from OH and Western PA. Only in the last couple years have they gotten players from FL. Kirk Herbstreet has set up an annual HS football weekend between the best Ohio HS teams against nationally ranked HS teams throughout the country. The Ohio teams consistently win. It is not hard to see why they win. Ohio is a huge football state. Google Nate Kmic. He came from a town near Toledo of 3000 people and wasn’t even recruited by Toledo or Bowling Green which are in his backyard. Also, everyone at Mount Union makes the team and that represents 10% of the student body. That is alot of players trying to crack the Salem playoff traveling team year in and year out. Where else does that happen? LK knows how to identify talent and bring out the best in his players. What I have never been able to figure out is why you would go to Mt. Union, when you might have a better chance of starting for another OAC school.
I’m looking for a great game this Saturday between UWW-MUC. I am pulling for the Hawks since they beat the CRU.
The average enrollment in the WIAC is like 9,000. UWW has over 8800 students. I was very surprised at that large number. Shouldn’t they be playing like D2 or 1AA ball? UMHB has 2300 students. The mount (I know they are great anyway) has 2200. I guess enrollment numbers mean nothing. Just wondering since it gives them a lot more kids to choose from.
I hope ESPN has better annoucers this year. The last two broadcasts have been a joke. I say Pat, Keith, and Ralf should do the game.
I want UWW to win but if I were to bet on the game I would pick this score. I hope I’m wrong.
MUC 41 UWW 28
Sorry ralf, I meant Ralph.
Ohioftball says “What I have never been able to figure out is why you would go to Mt. Union, when you might have a better chance of starting for another OAC school.” You might ask that of Garcon..who transfered from Norwich I believe….he simply wanted to be on a National Championship team…. I ask you this, why would anyone want to be on a Marietta team when they could be wearing a Championship ring?
I don’t think Mount should move up in divisions but I would like to see them play a mid level D2 team just to see what they could do. Playing the tougher competition isn’t going to hurt their program. Even if they did loose the game it won’t hurt the program or keep them out of the playoffs.
As for the athletes that Mount gets into it’s program. None of these guys are passing on scholarships to other schools to play at Mount like it seems some have suggested, that is ridiculous! Mount does get those guys who are on the bubble of getting a ride somewhere. There are a lot players out there that get passed over for various reasons such as size and speed or maturity, and even injury. Mount is right there to swoop these guys up. I played at Mount in the 80’s and we had a couple of guys on our team that had rides to D1 schools but got knee injuries their senior year in HS and lost there rides because of that. More recently Chuck Moore, who I’m sure you have heard of was a D1 prospect but in his last game of his senior year in HS sustained a serious knee injury and wound up at Mount. The D1, D1-AA,and D2 won’t take chances with kids like that because scholarships are limited and coaches jos are always on the line. I see Pierre Garcon may get an invite from an NFL team to try out. Like I said it’s these types of players that Mount capitalizes on when the bigger schools run out of scholarships.
my pal mainjack tells me mount opponents have a glimmer of hope for the future – 15 of the 22 starters this year are seniors.
TDD,
Did you play with Scott Wolfe at MUC? I grew up next door to him and he was at Ohio State for a year or two and transferred to MUC. Was the QB when Mount first started making the playoffs and played mighty Augustana.
BuckeyeRaider,
yea I played with him for a year. Had a strong arm. He played with the Raiders during the strike year.
TDD,
I know a number of the boys who got DI offers from “lesser” schools, including my son who plays for MUC, that would end up in the bottom of their conferences never winning anything. They decided that they wanted a chance to win titles and not lose the majority of their games. Plus, they would also had to deal with reduced playing time at the larger schools, as you say the bubble players. Winning is more important than sitting on the bench losing at a larger school.
MUCDad,
I’m surprised to hear that there are number of kids who would give up a scholarship to go to school for free than pay $25,000 a year tuition. Not to many kids or their parents are in a position to go to a school that costs that much. I know that winning is important but if you pass on a free education to play football, does that make any sense. If you don’t feel you have the talent to get to the next level at least take the free ride your ability has given you. Bottom line is you save $100,000 + and get an education which is what you are going to Mount for in the first place. Nobody has ever come out of the Mount program and made it in the pros. Some have had tryouts but haven’t done anything more than that.
TDD — I believe MUCdad is right, however.
Pat,
Like I said I’m surprised to here it. Kudos to those kids who do it. I know that they will have memories of the championships for the rest of their lives but I can’t say leaving school $100,000 in debt is the way I would go. Then there is no guarantee that you will play at Mount either. Just because you give up a D1 offer doesn’t mean you are going to see a lot of playing time at Mount. If it would happen that way then you just through a free education out the window.
TDD, keep in mind many of those kids, though they do notget scholarships, do get grants and such that seriously reduce the amount they(or their parents) pay to go to school. By the way MUC is more than 25k a year these days. Of course there is no guarantee that you will get to play but ifyou sit the bench winning national titles still beats beats sitting the bench on a losing DI team.
MUCDad,
I know that there are grants and aid to help reduce the cost, but even if it reduces it by half that is still a lot to pay when you could have went for free.
Mount has 150 to 200 players on the team. Only so many get to dress for a game. That means that the rest are in the stands watching the game like everyone else. I know it feels great to win a championship but if your one of those players on the bench and watching the game from the stands it takes away some of that feeling that the players that are on the sideline have when the game is over. Yea you are part of it but not like if you were playing. Thats why I say if you have a free education and there are no guarantees you are going to play take the scholarship, you will be further ahead.
Just a guess, but if you are sitting on the bench at MUC, i doubt that you turned down a D-I offer.
Just telling u about some of the kids I know and what they have said to me. Certainly many do not get that offer.
I have no idea how the MUC program operates, but I do know that it works! Speaking for UW-Whitewater, I do know that they will recruit kids who are likely to get scholarships elsewhere. They tell the kids that if they get an offer at a school they are interested in they should go for it. However, if they don’t get an offer they like, please keep UWW in mind. I know this has paid off in terms of getting athletes other D3 schools didn’t even “waste” their time talking to. They don’t ever get most of these kids, but they feel it is worth the time to get a gem or two. Also, this pays off in terms of transfers. Every year there are athletes who are disappointed in their freshman year experience. If they have a an impressive recruiting experience at UWW to remember, UWW could be back in the picture at that point.