161 thoughts on “Mount Union vs. UW-Whitewater again!”

1. T_Unit –

   That’s what the Stagg Bowl site says. He’s doing a pre-game tailgate and the National Anthem.

   Personally, I’m looking forward to seeing the Salem HS Marching Band again. Call me an old-fashioned band nerd, but I loves me some halftime marching bands!

2. R24,

   “IF UTICA COULD GET LIKE YOU SAY 300 KIDS, DON’T YOU THINK THEY WOULD HAVE 22 PRETTY DARN GOOD KIDS IN THAT BUNCH?”

   In a word…no. Why? because better than 200 of those kids wouldn’t have been recruited because they aren’t talented to enough to play anyway. The same thing holds true for D1 walk-on tryouts. Maybe 1 or 2 actually make the squad. This isn’t necessarily comparable to high schools where enrollment or open tryout numbers make a big difference.

   I think the point is pretty clear…the 22 guys that MUC puts on the field every year are as good or better than any 22 in D3 and that’s all that matters. 4 years isn’t enough time to sift through that many players anyway and the guys at the back end of the depth chart will never see the field from any position other than the bleachers. Kmic started as a Freshman, right? Doubt he was ever part of the “200 player pool of talent”. MUC knows which players are going to impact their program long before the tryout field fill with happless hopefuls. They don’t need that many kids around to figure that out.

3. GoScotties,
   What years did you play under coach kehres? I played four. Dont try to tell me how the Mount Union system works. Thanks for your educated guess though.

4. GoScotties,
   You hit it right on the button. Well said.

5. All,
   Is it the big roster that makes MUC amazing? Who knows, maybe it helps with finding unknown talent…maybe not. We do know that there is something going on and it is hard to explain. Anytime you have a team that is so dominant for so long, one has to askthe question…why? MUC can’t have superior athletes year after year. The opposing coaches aren’t getting outcoached year after year.

   I don’t believe it is the big roster for the same reasons noted above by others. There are only 11 on your team on the field at any given moment. That 11 has to be better than the opposing 11, plain and simple.

   When I was in high school, my team won 49 in a row with 4 state championships in a row. Our dominance was similar (granted on a much smaller scale) to what MUC is experiencing now. Looking back, it wasn’t superior athletes or superior coaching that brought us all those wins. It was a superior attitude. A winning attitude. I really believe that when a team goes into the season saying, as one voice, that “we are going to be national champs”, and really believing it, it has almost a magical effect on a team.

   This may all sound like bupkus to you but I think that high expectations and great attitude play a major role in MUC’s superior play.

6. R24aider…please enlighten us on who you exactly are and what years you played so we can see how you faired in this 200 person lineup…thanks!

7. Good point bartman…this is why I think WW has had some success against MU…they believe they can beat them…they have the attitude going in that we are just as good if not better then these guys…I think if other teams would just go into a game with this mentality (easier said then done) and execute at a high level…MU is very beatable…I know seeing all 2 of their losses in the last however many games isn’t really evidence to help back me up…but maybe it’s because I’ve seen my team do it…so I believe it’s very possible

8. A lot of bickering back and forth on nonsense issues…so, here’s another…what are the odds that the Mount Union assistant coach will run out on the field like he did last year [one of the strangest moments in a high profile game by a coach since Woody Hayes against Clemson]? Apparently he was complaining about the lack of a pushing in the back penalty on Whitewater during the Danny Jones TD sneak.

   I say he loses it again in the 4th quarter and makes it all the way out on the field and tries to kick dirt on the hash marks, in the best form of Cubs Skipper Lou P. with home plate (oh, sorry, playing on field turf & for the baseball reference!), but nevertheless, throws a tantrum at the official, before leaving the field, escorted off by Salem Stadium security personnel!

9. I want an MUC blowout so reserves number 209 and 210 get on the field…

10. piperarcher,

    I disagree with you, the system is the best in college football. You’re comment “UMHB crushes their opponents leading to the UWW game, has all games at home and cannot come close to beating Whitewater” UMHB BEAT HSU WHO IS IN OUR CONF 38-35 ON A LAST SECOND FG IN THE SECOND ROUND. In 07 we just about pulled it off in Whitewater, 16-7 FINAL SCORE. You may want to research more before posting inaccurate data. Plus, you will have you’re hands full Saturday, but I hope UWW wins.

11. R24,

    I guess I’m not even sure what your response was supposed to mean…

    I didn’t play at MUC, I didn’t even play football, I played baseball at Monmouth. I didn’t have to, to understand how numbers do not affect how good or bad a team is or that it is impossible to get 200 kids to the playing field in 4 years. If you “played” four years under Kehres, you must not have been in the last 100 on the depth chart…congratulations stud!

    The point was, most of those last 100 kids aren’t being recruited by Kehres so they have relatively no affect on the program and it wouldn’t matter if they were at MUC, UWW or any other D3. No one has that much time to recruit and only a select few of those players may ever develop into contributing players. It wouldn’t matter if you had 500 kids out for the team.

    If that was the case, then were back to the high school mentality of larger schools having better teams because of having more talent to choose from and the WIAC would be kicking everyones butt. Monmouth is one of the smallest schools in the division with around 1400 students and they could beat 95% of the teams in D3.

    You do not have strength in numbers, there is no such thing at this level…let it go man. MUC is great because of the great players that Kehres recruits, not because of the 8th string.

12. D3Keith,

    Were you surprised that UMHB decided to kick into the wind to begin the second half? Coach Pete said he wished he would have not done that and it was his call.

13. d3Keith, in regards to a previous post about the only two Stagg Bowl blowouts you’ve seen (1997 & 2002) keep in mind that the 2002 blowout (MUC over Trinity) had a mitigating factor. Trinity’s QB was arrested in San Antonio the week before the game and was suspended. If he had been able to play, I dare say that that may not have been the blowout it was. Trinity had a very good team that year. I still shudder when I think about Jeherme Urban & co. beating BC at home on a snow-covered field.

14. YeahBombers,
    good news bad news. mount isn’t allowed to bring the whole team. bad news, our 3rd and 4th teams would probably beat your first team. I’m done w/this topic. talk to me when your team is in the stagg.

15. One thing I have always wondered about…re:roster size….Let’s face it, these guys are paying to go to school…not like they are having a free ride…..now if I were paying my way and wanted to play..who’s to tell me I can’t…It’s my money putting me through school. So what if I sit on the bench and only play my Senior year…that was my decision and no one has a right to tell me I can’t. A real case of putting your money where your mouth is! GO PURPLE RAIDERS….GO KMIC…go out a winner! Everyone have fun in Salem…wish I were there…

16. I played for UWW in the early 90’s and we were good, just not great. D3 football is about the program most definitely guys. We were very solid, had great talent all around yet we couldn’t win the big ones. Late in the 90’s coach Berezowitz went and met Keyres, watched his camps, scheduled a home and away. MUC KILLED us. But we learned. He made some changes in our program. It took a couple years but they got way better. The guys playing on the firld are no bigger or faster than what we had then. The system makes a tremendous difference. This is when UWW met St. Norbert and other local D3 “powers” and annihilated them. They have been nearly unstoppable since the awakening. Perhaps more coaches take a hard look at MUC’s example of excellence and they too could find themselves competitive on a new level.

17. Warhawkguard,
    Right on! That’s why mount has so much respect for UWW and visa versa. That’s why this is the fourth year in a row the teams are meeting in the stagg. Berewitz understood that whining about Mount union this and Mount Union that, wasn’t going to make his team better. So, he took action and learned and now UWW is building a dynasty. yeahbombers, goscotties do you get the message?

18. Warhawkguard and Bartman,

    I agree with both of you. I think the program does make all the difference in the world. And I think a winning program produces a winning mindset. I think the winning mindset involves not being intimidated or taking any crap from anyone. And I think it can spread to the fans. There’s no doubt that both Mount Union and UWW have “it”.

    Both believe they can win. Both expect to win. Both teams have won way too much respect from their fans to allow fans, even from the other school, to “push them around” verbally. I desperately don’t want to be the voice of reason in what has started as a wonderfully antagonistic week. I have a lot of respect for Mount Union.

    And i may well be off my rocker as R24 says, but there is nothing to be intimidated by from Mount Union. They have a football team that might be the equal of UWW. We will find out. Mount fans can ask “How many Staggs has UWW won?” That’s fine. When they run out of facts in a discussion, they will probably be able to use that for the next 20 years or so. I’ll give them some slack because is hard for them to swallow that they’ve lost ground to another program in the last 5 or 6 years. But they have.

    Mount Union now has an equal. We should probably give their fans some slack to help them get used to that idea. Other than admitting it, the only way their fans can cope is to look backwards. And without a doubt they have been the dominant program over the last 15 years. But the rise of UWW is not debatable. Four straight Stagg appearances, a victory over MUC the last time they played, defending National Champions, and coming to the Stagg this year with 6 Seniors and 7 starters who are either Freshman or Sophomores (If you count Coppage and Anderson as a two headed RB Monster). The question isn’t who has won the most Staggs in the last 15 years. The question is who is more likely to win more the next 15? The answer to that question could very easily be UWW. If Mount finds a way to win Saturday, that won’t change that. If UWW wins Saturday with this young team, it could be that UWW has done more than join Mount at the top. If this young teams beats Kmic and company Saturday, UWW may have REPLACED Mount.

19. YeahBombers-

    Playoff limits don’t let them dress everybody. You’ll have to wait for the regular season for that. As a broadcaster, I can tell you there’s nothing worse than when there are 3 #99’s and you’re not sure who’s who.

    Bleedpurple-

    I don’t know if Whitewater is equal…yet. You’ve got one title, they’ve got nine. Even if WW wins on Saturday, they definitely haven’t REPLACED Mount. Two titles in a row is hardly the same as winning three in a row, three times.

    By the way, I still call Mount the favorite, so saying “if Mount finds a way to win” is a little funny to me. Looking forward to Saturday. Maybe we’ll get a chance to meet.

20. Oh oh. R24 agreed with Warhawkguard. And I agreed with Warhawkguard. That doesn’t mean I agreed with R24 does it? Say it ain’t so….

21. Toph,
    When the New England Patiots first became the most current dominant team in the NFL. Say after they won two Super Bowls and showed no signs of slowing down. They were not considered equal to the Packers of the 60’s or the Steelers of the 70’s nor should they have been. They were simply the most dominant team at the time. That’s all I’m referring to. I kind of acknowledged that for the next 20 years Mount fans will be able to point to the greatest dynasty ever.

    What I’m saying now is that if UWW wins a second consecutive Stagg, they will become the current dominant team. A step ahead CURRENTLY of Mount. That’s all. I think two consecutive Staggs is worthy of that discussion.

22. We’ll see if they get that second win first ;). Even if WW is the current defending champs, Mount is still the favorite.

23. R24–

    In case you didn’t know, the Bombers have gone to the Stagg Bowl 7 times. We’ve got three National Championship trophies of our own and a Head Coach in the College Football Hall of Fame. Yes, we’re not at that level anymore, but Division III college football did exist before 1993. If you want people to respect MUC, show some respect for their teams as well.

    I never said one rude thing about MUC, or their roster size. I just thought it was interesting. Why are you getting so angry? No-one doubts that your program is the premier one in college football. I even called them the greatest dynasty in college football.

24. T-Unit14
    Just a comment on the 2007 Stagg you mentioned earlier. It was not such a surprise that WW won last year as you indicated. Two major factors explain the Mount loss. Four turnovers which is very uncharacteristic for a Mount team.
    And Justin Beaver. He played a career game and picked the team up and carried them to that championship. He was not going to be denied. Weather and all. One minor factor, “Holding” Nate Kmic to 130 yards sounds funny but that was a important too.

    For all else in this “why Mount” discussion it really is quite simple……the one constant that has been in place through out this entire run.

    Larry Kehres end of discussion.

    Players come and go, assistant coaches come and go and still he manages to put a competitive team on the field year in and year out. He has a basic profile of the type of kid he wants. One with a passion for a good education and the same kind of passion for the game of football. I think it takes an equal part of both to succeed in his plan and that is why it remains so consistant. He sticks to his plan. His graduation record is better than his football winning % as well.

    There was an article in the Akron Beacon Journal about Nate Kmic last week. He tells his story about missing his dream of playing for Bowling Green State, who did not give him look. He talks about reviewing film with Larry and making his decision to come to the Raiders and become part of the “200.” Even more insightful was his comment about being intimidated by having 7-8 running backs on the team. He was no longer the star he had been in high school and he stated he had seriously considered quiting the team. Oh my? He also said that Larry was hard on him and inspired him to work hard to become the player he is today. Even LK admits he never dreamed Nate would attain the success he has, who would?

    As a die hard Raider fan I am glad he made the decission to stay and play.

25. YeahBombers,
    I have no beef w/ you. In fact I have the utmost respect for Ithaca and all DIII teams. Shoot, I even picked Ithaca to make it to the Qfinals to meet Mount. I’am moving to the other board to talk finals, see ya.

26. Mount’s probably always going to be the prohibitive favorite as long as Kehres is around. It’ll be interesting to see what happens after that. How old is he? I think he graduated in ’73, so figure he’s 56 or 57? I wonder how long he intends to keep on coaching? Guy like him, you’d think it would be till he was physically unable to do it, but who knows? Maybe he’s taking aim at Paterno and Bowden? Anyone got any info on that?

    Ithaca’s transition from “elite” program in D-III to “very good” program in D-III is pretty much directly correlated to the departure of Butterfield. Now, who knows if he’d be able to compete with the MUC’s of the world? And it’s not like Welch is a bad coach. But things can change. Another East power in the late 90’s, Buffalo State, ran into the same problem when their coach, Jerry Boyes left (He’s now back). I think, for all the talk about roster sizes, etc, that Kehres’ coaching ability gets underplayed. It’d be interesting to see him at another school–in a different world of course–just to see if he could work his magic on those schools.

    You know what I’ve always wondered about MUC and the occasional losses they face? You wonder if maybe, their lack of tests in the regular season and early rounds of the playoffs contribute at all to that? Not that they’re I’ll prepared, per se. But, if you’re down say, 17-6 in the 4th quarter to St. John’s, how do you react to a situation you’re not used to? And I’m not talking like, “IC scores on their opening drive to go up 6-0” like last season. I’m talking about a tightly contested game for 4 quarters. In the long run, we’re talking about a real small number of losses, but it’s something interesting to discuss.

27. YeahBombers,

    I think we saw something like that in last year’s Stagg. UWW put a lot of pressure on them and MUC wasn’t able to complete the comeback. But at the same time, I didn’t feel like that game was over until the final seconds were ticking away. With Micheli, Kmic, Garcon, etc…, they just had (and still have) way too many weapons to ever let a team feel comfortable. They are beatable, but it takes 100% effort for the entire 60 minutes.

    Maybe other games would end differently, but I think MUC biggest advantage in that situation is the tedious nature of holding the rare lead against them. When you know in the back of your mind that a team can strike at any time, its tough to get comfortable.

    Should be interesting to see how UWW’s younger guys react to that on Saturday. UWW certainly has plenty of their own weapons, and a lot of guys who have been there before, even if they didn’t play much. If they can put pressure on MUC again this year, we’ll see how that lack of close game experience effects them.

28. Bleedpurple

    I think one thing you are overlooking is the job Mount did reloading this year. It’s easy to do when you have a Micheli and Kmic returning, but basically they had to replace every other position on the field. They had 3 starters coming back on one side, and two on the other. The two teams are very similar in that regard.

    Wisportsfan

    That is a concern a lot of us Mount fans have regularly. 2003 – semifinal blow-out vs Bridgewater….lose in the finals to SJU. 2007 – semifinal blow-out vs. Bethel…..lose in the finals to WW. I wouldn’t call the Wheaton game a blow-out, but I guess time will tell how it plays out regarding the championship game.

29. These comments are exactly like those here last year. We’ll see, we’ll see. Yes, UWW will find it super tough to win, but if they play perfectly it is possible. Their previous two visits to Salem they gave up the big plays to MUC and lost to the team that didn’t. MUC played a heck of a game last year but a couple big plays went UWW’s way and that was the difference. I hope a great game is played by both sides and it will be a pleasure to watch. The best of D3 is danged good football, better to watch than something like a lousy Notre Dame team that can’t do anything well.

    I can’t wait to see the game! Go Hawks!

30. bleedpurple,
    that comment about fans coping is pretty shady…thanks for that. You talk as if my life would just fall apart if Mount Union wasn’t in the Stagg Bowl. Get real man. There were a few UWW fans who I thought we jerks last year, but it didn’t cause me to put all of the fans into one basket like that. I would consider UWW to be right at MUC’s level. What they’ve accomplished, and may accomplish on Saturday, has been great to watch, as the level of play in WIAC is so high. Also, they could have easily been discouraged the first two times they lost in the Stagg, but they kept coming right back, won last year and certainly have more than a chance to win on Saturday. And 2 consecutive Staggs would be worthy of that discussion that they would be one of the most dominant teams of that time period. I will say though….it’s Mount’s 4th Stagg in a row as well, not just UWW, and if Mount has been there 7 out of the last 8, so I too find replacing to be too strong a word.

    UWW better bring the same game they brought last year…I don’t think MUC will turn the ball over this time around. The guys left from last year’s team have a bitter taste in their mouths I would think. A lot of talented seniors walked away having come up short, and they very well might consider this year as much for them as it is this current team – a little “unfinished business” of their own if you will. 🙂

    I agree with the posters who said that the lack of experience in close games can possibly hurt a team like Mount. I used to hate when MUC would blow out their semi opponent like 60-3, because i made me think they might go into Salem and dial it in and get beat. This year’s teams- Hobart, Cortland St and Wheaton, I felt were pretty good opponents who made the team earn its way.

    Here’s to what I’m sure will be a great game, regardless of the outcome.

31. Who else thinks this 11 AM start time is crap? What else is ESPN going to show on Saturday? 11 AM? What a joke.

32. Eaglebank Bowl at 11 ESPN, wake vs navy.

33. Wow…

    A meaningless game between a 7-5 and 8-4 team that have already played this season over a NC game…

    Gottla love ESPN…was the Ocho unavailable?

34. The Stagg will have more viewers.

35. MUC01Nashvegas,

    Cope may have been too hard of a word to use. I didn’t mean to lump all fans in a basket. Mount fans all have a pretty deep grasp of the game as far as I can tell. Some of them are very reasonable and respectful of other programs. Others could be perceived as a touch arrogant in some of their comments. I like to go back and forth with the ones that seem to be a little over the top. And I say this fully knowing that if UWW is ever blessed enough to go to 7 out of 8 Staggs, I would be one of the “over the top” backers for UWW.

    I thought your post was well thought out and well written. I agree UWW has to bring the same game as last year. MUC is always a mountain to try to beat. I’d imagine trying to defeat them after what happened last year would be a HUGE mountain. Hoping for a great game on Saturday!

36. I will admit that it was probably uncharacteristic of mount to have so many turnovers last year…but lets not forget that WW coughed up the ball as many times…lucklily they recovered a few of their own…so the conditions were the same for both teams…one or two bounces just went ww’s way…and a few went against MU…maybe the football gods are as sick of mount dominating as everyone else seems to be 🙂

37. “Musings on Seeing the Same-Old Teams Predicament”

    I attended the UW-Whitewater UMHB game this weekend and then was reading some of the posts before I flew back yesterday.

    I was thinking about the comments about seeing the same teams in the final game this weekend, esp. in light of attending the UW-Whitewater Willamette game a few weeks ago and observing that UMHB played two very competitive games with another member of its conference in the first round (Hardin Simmons).

    While a “pipe” dream on my part, I do wonder if tinkering with the NCAA 32 seedings would make a difference in the outcome. Why should geography penalize some of these 32 teams and hurt their chances for advancement?

    This year, what comes to mind were the opening round games between UMHB- Hardin Simmons and Willamette-Occidental. A case might be made that if the NCAA would not worry about the distance/cost, and allow teams to drive and/or fly with greater geographical bounderies, then some teams might go further into the playoffs. Willamette-UW-Whitewater was a heavyweight game with two high seeds playing way too soon, in my opinion (based on the DIII rankings). I think someone familiar with UMHB-Hardin Simmons would say the same thing.

    I think if Willamette beats UW-Whitewater, they would have made a serious run to a semi-final game with UMHB (both of whom run a version of the option) and perhaps with Mount Union College in the championship.

    The seeding of each 8 team region (e.g., 1 versus 8, 2 versus 7, 3 versus 6, and 4 versus 5) might be a start to bring variety, or one might even say parity back into the playoffs. But this would require a greater financial commitment from the NCAA.

    The outcome might still be the same (of seeing MUC and UWW) but it levels out the field and addresses a concern I see in several of the threads, above.

38. OK Bartman, you’ve got my curiosity up. What HS? (49 straight) and give me a clue re: ID of your son. (I have have the roster).

39. Who else thinks this 11 AM start time is crap? What else is ESPN going to show on Saturday? 11 AM? What a joke.

    Personally I’d watch the game no matter what time it came on. My problem is that it starts at the same time as my graduation in Whitewater. Might be able to catch the 4th quarter live, but the suspense during the ceremony is going to be brutal. I know it’s completely irrational to be upset with anybody for that, but ESPN just makes a convenient target.

    And yes, the Stagg probably will have more viewers, and will likely be a better game, with more intriguing storylines, a meaningful championship at stake, and probably about the same number of players with a legit NFL shot (maybe slightly lower). But other than that…

40. Toph – give a listen to the podcast – [surprise!], the 2 impartial guys from d3football.com were saying that Whitewater might possibly be the favorite. The way I heard it, it sounded like the were preparing the masses for that distinct possiblility – I maybe wrong, but listen and make your own decision.

    Raiderguy – Last year, Beaver didn’t just have a career game in the Stagg, he was doing that his entire career. I wonder if Daryl Ely is back in the present after getting knocked into the past at the end of that long run?

41. why does everyone assume whenever WW beats another good team it was their “best game” or “career game”…I know I heard that from a few UMHB…

42. Anyone know what color uniforms the teams are going to be wearing?

    I wanna see WW come out in the all black again this year…I love them!

43. I taking a wild guess, purple, black and white? T_unit, just bust’n your chops, I know what you mean.

44. UWSYSTEMFAN,

    Great point!! HSU is a very good football team. They may have given UWW a better game since they have a great QB.

45. cur crushed – not too sure about that…HSU barely beat the 5th place WIAC team [UW-La Crosse] 24-23, after trailing the entire game; Whitewater shut-out La Crosse 31-0…my guess is Whitewater does the same thing to HSU as they did to UMHB…only worse…windy day or not!!

46. Statesman78,
    The high school is in Upstate NY, it is called Caledonia-Mumford. We were coached by Bill McAlee. Back then (1977-1981) we didn’t have the state playoff system that we have now. We were ranked for our titles. Muthical, as they say.

    As for my son, I think you will be pleased to know, and it is quite a coincidence, that his number is/was 78. He played center. Big, 6’5″ 295lbs.

    He is home from Hobart today and we had a good talk re: the game. Obviously, it would have been a much better game if we had Duliba, Hobaica, and a healthy Doyle. But he said the he though the O-Line did a great job getting over 100 yards rushing, without your star running back.

    We’re both rooting for MUC.

47. Mythical

48. T_Unit14 ………….my guess would be uww will be in all white and mount all purple. i think mount will be the home side sinse last year they were away.

49. nate-

    I will have to take a listen. Personally, I don’t see how, but I thought Mount would win last year. I think the game will be close, but I’d put the line at MUC -7.5.

    T_Unit14-

    Unfortunately for you, the home/away teams rotate each year. This year UWW is away. Just how many Stagg Bowls do you need to figure that out? 🙂 UWW will wear their visiting whites. Mount will probably wear their home purple, but could potentially wear their black jerseys. If what I was told by a Mount backer is correct, the players/coaches decide whether or not MUC played its best possible football the week before, and if they feel they did, they break out the black jerseys. After seeing last week’s game, I’d bet on purple. While dominant, they could’ve been better.

50. They rotate? News to me.