Not sure if I want to step on Pat and Gordon’s Sunday tradition of “immediate thoughts on Week 1” so the door is open for a separate blog tomorrow if this doesn’t cover the bases.
I was supposed to go to Salisbury at Washington & Jefferson today, before a confluence of events finally got me to admit at 4 a.m. last night that there was a 50% chance I wouldn’t/shouldn’t go.
I still wanted to see the game, a both teams. Perhaps I should have. Because although my first idea for ATN this week died right there on the field (how having 5 O-Lineman back precipitates early success), a new one seems to have been born.
The mid-Atlantic shakeup. It’s only 4:38, and already No. 15 W&J has gone down by double digits and two 2005 conference champions from the mid-Atlantic have taken losses (Ferrum, 49-35 at Guilford and Johns Hopkins, 20-10 at home vs. Rochester).
Salisbury, meanwhile, is a mid-Atlantic 2004 playoff team perhaps on track towards getting back, unlike Shenandoah, who did not impress in a 17-6 loss to Catholic on Thursday.
As for selfish pats on the back, I believe I used the word “smoked” in conjunction with Mount Union-Averett in ATN this week (64-7 final), but I, uh, also, may have, uh, indicated that possibly Waynesburg could hang with No. 8 Wesley. (41-14 final).
You win some, you lose some???
Open for other thoughts …
0 times. still smiling that I’ve never asked anyone “do you want fries with that?” since graduation.
Fellas,
It’s soooo early, way too soon to be drawing conclusions about who will “definitely” meet in Salem. It wouldn’t be a shock to see UWW and/or MUC back, but it wouldn’t be a shock — to me, at least — if one or both lost before the playoffs or in the playoffs before Salem. Nothing is guaranteed, and as good as both of those teams were last year, they each played three or so games that were tight and possibly could have gone the other way (or did go the other way), so it’s not really wise to act like no one out there can match either of them.
As far as knowitall, I’ve got you pegged now. I’ll officially stop taking you seriously.
As far as Mount Union (or Rowan or wherever else this complaint comes up repeatedly) getting transfers, the reality is that — in Division III — the transfers spend more time seeking out winning programs than the programs do seeking out those guys, because they’re few and far between. Most good D3 programs have some transfers or guys that didn’t like it/cut it at another school, that’s not too abnormal. And frankly, Mount Union built, and continues to build, its dynasty with kids recruited straight out of Ohio’s high schools.
If we want to talk inequalities in Division III, how about how the tuition differences between Mount Union ($10,000+), Rowan ($6-12,000), UW-Whitewater (varies, but can be under $5,000) and your Hobarts of the world ($33,000 … $43,500 with room and board)?
Money talks, and certainly has a great effect on the ability to bring in talent in quantity, if not quality.
“If I’m not mistaken UWW could only draw around 1,500 fans for it’s first round game vs. Central last year. That is pretty damn sad considering UWW has a student body of 10K.”
The full-time student body of UWW is somewhere around 8k on any given year. According to the NCAA, UWW’s football attendance ranked 13th in the country out of 227 schools in 2005 with an average attendance of 3574 for 8 games. (This would not include the playoffs.)
Watcher,
13th out of 227 is great.
I do find the passion for some the schools to be very strong. I mean you have schools with student bodies of 1,025-1,750 and are drawing 3,900-4,500 a game. I would like to see what attendance might be if those schools have they had a potential 6,000 more undergrads to draw from. I still find it odd that such a good football team with such a large student body could only draw 1,500 for a playoff game…..
Depending on the school’s class schedule and the weather, playoff attendance widely varies. Kids might be home for Thanksgiving, even for the first round. And students who are accustomed to getting in free might not react well to the mandatory NCAA admission charge.
I believe the first round game last year was on Halloween…. As many of you know, the most famous halloween party in the US happens to be in madison, wisconsin, and i suspect thousands of uww students were out on state street during that weekend….
Its great to see UWW have so much success (several national titles in Baseball, Volleyball, (almost in Track/FB, etc) the past few years, but Wisconsin is a dominant program (in Men’s Basketball, Football, and Hockey), and the DIII teams in the State are drowned out alot by UW…
Still, I would expect attendance to be up at UWW significantly this year
I thought the most “famous” Halloween party would be in Salem.
“Where are all the fans?” by warhawkfootball.com
http://www.warhawkfootball.com/viewnews.asp?pId=667
Come on Pat…it’s state school, those students should have the extra cash laying around! 🙂 (joking)
Got me pegged Keith???? Is that good or bad. I call it like it is!!!!
You keep on talking no matter what. That’s alright, I know what that’s like.
Can I call you the Fred Smoot of the blog?
Warhawk, there was definitely no first-round playoff game on Halloween, so long as that’s still Oct. 31.
It’s easy for me to remember because my birthday is Veterans Day, and the last week of the regular season has fallen on or around that day every year since I’ve been involved with Division III, which is 12 or 13 seasons now. So the first round of the playoffs usually falls around Nov. 18, or the third Saturday in Nov.
Something like that.
Keith,
Good points about the MU / UWW “rematch” in Salem this year. I’m guilty sometimes of filling out my brackets a little early. There is no doubt MU is a machine on a roll but there have been a few other champions since 93. UWW doesn’t have the history of MU but the Warhawk team I saw in Salem last year was one of the best D3 teams I have ever seen. (despite the fact they lost)
Of course, I am most familiar with the ODAC & USA South conferences. In recent years (other than Bridgewater) neither of these conferences has gone very deep into the playoffs. Many have probably forgotten that prior to 2000, BC was the worst team in the ODAC for years and years. In the almost 30 year history of the ODAC, E&H may have advanced past the first round a time or two and the 1977 H-SC team was a fantastic offensive team but they lost to Albany State 52 to 45 in the first round. (and Marty Favret wasn’t even there 🙂 ) Still one of the most incredible D3 games ever. Point being, as great as it has been to be involved with these two conferences for the last 30+ years, they have not achieved on the national stage (football) like some others around the country. IMO, there are numerous reasons for that which have been more than covered before. It just shows how hard it is to get to the highest levels and stay there.
Back to the recruiting thing. To me it’s pretty simple. If I’m a reasonably intelligent blue chip Ohio HS player (but questionable D1 level) I can: A) Be a blocking dummy at Ohio State B) Be a starter/star at an average D3 program C) Go to MU and have a legit chance to win a national championship. I know which one I would choose!!
Wasn’t the first round of the 2005 DIII playoffs on November 19? The DIII schedule seems to always be 11 weeks, with the last week of the regular season ending on the 2nd Saturday in November. Halloween is October 31st, so the attendance argument presented earlier simply doesn’t fly.
I find all of this “MUC vs WWW in the ’06 Stagg” talk rather hilarious. It’s WAY TOO EARLY to be worrying about the championship game. There’s no guarentee that either school will even win it’s own conference, let alone make it thru to the Stagg. Based on last year’s results and the number of starters returning, there’s no doubt they are the favorites, but that’s exactly what we thought about Linfield last year and MUC heading into 2003 and 2004. In fact one could argue that Linfield was a bigger favorite heading into 2005 than either MUC or WWW this year and we all know how that worked out.
If I had to list the most likely teams to make the ’06 Stagg, I’d rank them as follows:
1. Mount Union – LK returns all key members of O, D is young but fast & deep
2. Rowan – great D and returns All-American QB to lead
3. Whitewater – hard to repeat a 10-0 season in the WIAC
4. Capital – 2nd best team MUC saw in ’05 and return Pentello for a 7th season
5. St Johns – should be loaded and never count out Gagliardi
6. Hardin Simmons – very good team returns a stud QB
7. everyone else
Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised to see any of the above teams in Salem VA. A lot of it will depend on injuries (see Rowan and H-S last year), and match-ups in the playoffs. What if MUC loses an OAC game again and has to travel to Rowan or WWW in the Semi’s? That drastically changes the odds of MUC reaching the Stagg. Or what happens to WWW if Beaver or Jacobs gets hurt?
The discussion of recruiting is always an interesting one for me. One thing to remember is that there are a few differences in the Ohio vs Wisconsin recruiting that in my opinion make the comparison between the WIAC and OAC schools even more clouded. The $ part has already been mentioned (though I think the MUC amount quoted above is too low).
The Wisc D3 schools have the advantage that there is only one D1 school in the entire state to compete with, but have the disadvantage that there isn’t the population numbers to pull from like Ohio. The WIAC schools also have the 100 man roster limit that might scare away a few kids of trying. Don’t know what the D1-AA or D2 landscape is in Wisc though, but it’s my impression that it’s non-existant as the state backed D3 schools fill that role in Wisc.
The Ohio D3 schools have the advantage that there is a ton of quality depth in the local high schools, but there is numerous D1 colleges to pick over that talent. Ohio State is the only big boy, but the MAC D1 colleges like Bowling Green, Toledo, Ohio U, Miami, Kent and Akron, plus D1-AA Youngstown State that pulls alot of Ohio kids. There is also a few NAIA schools in Mount’s backyard (Malone and Walsh) that give partial schollies too. So while Ohio has a lot more depth in the high schools than Wisc, I think it balances out by the high number of scholarship colleges.
I don’t see a football advantage in the open rosters in the Ohio schools. Yes, they have more kids to select starters from, but the odds of pulling a stud from the extra 100 kids is pretty slim. The advantage of open rosters is getting extra students thru the admissions office from a pure $ basis. Plus trying to manage that many kids in practice is a nightmare.
Some actually consider the huge roster size as a deterent to some kids becuase they’re scared off by the depth. It’s hard to stick it out when you’re 15th on the depth chart. That depth runs a lot of very good kids out of the program after 1 year. Case in point is the stud MLB (Sickmeier) from Capital last year that came to MUC but was buried on the freshman depth chart and transfered closer to home at Cap. Or the Stark County Player of the Year a few years ago from tradition rich Massillon Perry (Eric Heinzer) who couldn’t crack the freshmen lineup and transfered to Malone. Both of those kids would have been very good players at MUC, but the depth above them as freshmen scared them off.
Yikes. Sorry the above post was so long!
HScoach,
I thought the post was very informative despite the length, LOL! First, you are correct regarding the fact that there are no D1-AA or D-2 schools in Wisconsin. Only choices are Madison or the D-3 sub-system. Secondly, you are also correct that it is a very long season and many factors will play out before two contenders reach the Stagg Bowl. You are also correct that it is VERY hard to repeat a 10-0 season in the WIAC. But, you loose me when that is the reason you list UWW at #3 behind Rowan. It will not be necessary for UWW to go undefeated in the WIAC, simply that they win the Conference Championship to earn an automatic berth in the playoffs. LAX won it in 2003 with a 6-1 conference record and in 2004 with a 5-2 conference record. Now, going undefeated IS necessary to hold their #2 seed which will greatly benefit their playoff run if they get that far.
Mount Union’s tuition (including room and board) is somewhere around $25,000 a year, not $10k.
WIACwatcher: You hit the exact reason I have Rowan ahead of WWW. I’m banking on WWW not being able to finish 10-0, which means they probably travel for the Semi-Finals, probably to Rowan or MUC. And honestly, I think Rowan is every bit as good as MUC and WWW with a stud QB. The Profs had a very fast and nasty defense last year, just no passing threat as well as being on their 3rd or 4th TB when they played MUC. Defensively, Rowan was the best defense Mount saw last year, Capital was 2nd and Whitewater 3rd.
I’m also curious to see how WWW plays this season with elevated expectations (and the target on their chests out West). It’s alot harder to stay at the top than it is to get there. Will the WWW staff and players have the same hunger as 2005? Will it be more? Or less? It’s easy to say that it will be more, but it’s often human nature to look at the success of the past and predict more success in the future based solely on “a year older is a year better”. It’s not always that easy. Especially for a team that burst onto the scene from relative obscurity. I have the same concerns with Wesley this year. Will someone sneak up on WWW like they did to Linfield last year?
I am not aware of any D1 transfers at Mount at present or in the recent memory. It is certainly not the source for the success of the program as has been elluded to. The overwhelming number of players have waited their turn coming up through the ranks. As mentioned earlier Garcon is D3 transfer. His story was well documented before last season. The competition for students is fierce because of all the choices in Ohio/Pa alone so you would have to ask the 119 freshman who came in, “Why Mount?” You still have to have the confidence in your ability to earn PT. Mount does not cut players as long as they come to practice and abide by the rules.
Mount does offer a rich tradition that would be attractive to many student athletes but I would say a 219 player roster is every bit as intimidating as one that is only 100. I would have to turn to someone in the WIAC to get the answer for the 100 player limit since it is not one that is imposed by anyone but their own conference as I understand it.
I even read about a transfer “from Mount Union College” in the Carthage preseason column so you might as well pencil them in for the Stagg Bowl now too.
HSCoach,
Whitewater didn’t sneek up on Linfield….The ‘Cats knew full in advance that WW was going to be the toughest team they have played up to that point of the 05 season and that proved to be correct. Sneeking up is more what the Cobbers did and having a lead at half vs. Linfield. Didn’t think that would happen at all.
However, I agree w/ the point in let’s see how Whitewater plays as the hunted this year. My guess is that they are going to play very well.
I pulled the Mount Union tuition number off the Mount website, as I did all the other numbers. It’s certainly possible that that was one of many numbers, or perhaps a pre-room and board number, but that’s where I got it from.
I’M STUCK PAYING $33,000 FOR MY SON TO PLAY AT CAL LU. MOUNT UNION SOUNDS LIKE A BARGAIN, EXCEPT, THE YEAR ROUND SUNSHINE IN CALIFORNIA MAKES UP FOR IT.
Rowan over UWW I have heard it all now. Hopefully the high school team you coach has a ton of talent, cause they certainly wont be strong in the knowledge of the game. Whitewater goes 10-0 guaranteed, I dont know what will make you believe. Hopefully all of you will be on here October 14th after they pound Lacrosse look for my post.
Knowitall: La Crosse is two words.
La Crosse or Lacrosse which ever one shows up against whitewater can expect 28 point beating!!!! WIAC should let La Crosse play with 13 guys. The could put the extra two guys on Stanley and maybe hold him under 200 yards…..
It IS way too early tosay who will be at the Stagg Bowl on the field. I know that I will be at the Stagg Bowl with brownies for both teams and for the fans that come to Stone Station. We really had a rocking time last year with MUC fans and UW-WW fans. It was a blast. And the year before, it was a grand affair with Charles H and the huge Linfield flag and Roocru and the UMHB crowd!! What I want to see is good football with the fewest amount of injuries so the teams that contend are at their best when the playoffs come. We have the best system of deciding who is at the top. God forbid we have to have a 2 level system: Bowl division and the “what are they calling it now?” the Championship division. Ridiculous. At least as Div I-AA they didn’t seem as much like the ugly stepsisters. That is until everybody saw that disaster of a field that JMU had to play on when they won the national championship 2 seasons ago. Since I didn’t get to see the Stagg Bowl in 2001 being in the hospital, I would love for my team to make it this year. But the 2 that make the trip have to earn it the old fashioned way. They have to win their way through. That’s as it should be. Isn’t it great that it’s football season again. A big hello to allsky7–enjoyed talking to you at Salem last year!!
Olinemom,
I enjoyed the conver as well. I did miss out on the brownies though so plan to get to Salem even earlier this year. 🙂
You have hit the nail on the head. I realize I have mentioned this before and this is preaching to the choir but D3 does have the best system. Not only on the field but in other areas as well. D3 athletes have to go to class, eat in the same dining hall, and follow the same rules as everyone else. There aren’t many dumb jocks in D3. Pat, since you have so much spare time these days, how about an article on a day in the life of the average D3 athlete?
Good luck to your Eagles. I’m not sure if they will be in Salem, but if I were a gambling man, I’d bet they will be playing football along with their turkey and dressing.
VAraider 25,000 is still not 35-40,000. I think D3Keith has a good point overall. There are always exceptions but I think money does play a significant role in the process. When it comes down to it though the Stagg Bowl does not list tutiton and overall gpa next to its participants names. Regardless of difficulty in recruiting to win you must recruit well! Oh yeah, it is harder to get into Union than RPI and also more expensive….just thought I’d get this rivalry going a little early.
allsky7, you aren’t kidding about my lack of time. It’s been crazy. In fact, I completely forgot to get us set up with Insiders on the blog this year. That’s exactly what I was hoping the players who blogged for us the past couple years would bring to the site.
I graduated from Mount Union in 1994 and the yearly cost (including room and board) was around $18K a year then. I thought I saw somewhere recently (don’t remember where) that it was pushing $30K now. I’ll try to find it.
It appears that Keith got his data from here:
http://www.muc.edu/admission/international_admission/2006_2007_tuition_and_related_costs
The $10,000 is a PER SEMESTER fee for Tuition only. Room and Board is another $3175 PER SEMESTER. So that turns into $26,350 per year prior to books and other incidentals.
Well,
it was just for a blog post so sloppy reporting is permitted. 🙂
Good strategy though, listing the per-semester price surely reduces some of the parental sticker shock.
I had that thought about the Insider yesterday, Pat. Last year it was like people were beating down the door to do it.
That’s Ok Keith, my Mom was living in London a few years ago (her husband was working over there) and they listed the Rents for Apartments (Flats) as weekly rates. 🙂
Ok, basic question for the board, if you had to compare Teddy Ginn form OSU, and Pierre Garcon from Mount Union, who would be the better all around player for WR?
You mean who is worth more to their team?
Because I’m gonna go with Ginn otherwise. 🙂
honestly, I feel that Garcon is a better rout runner and has better hands but not quite as fast as Ginn.I think Ginn is over hyped. Im a buckeye fan dont get me wrong but still overated is overated.Go bucks beat Texas..
I’ll take Garçon. He may be a tad slower but he has great hands , he runs great routes and he gets anything thrown to him. Invaluble to his team.