OK,
never you mind which D3football.com columnist said this season was wide open. Turns out it was always the Warhawks and the Purple Raiders.
So, I figured I might as well get a jump on this week’s chatter by setting up a thread where we can speculate if UW-W will even the score at 2-2, or will Greg Micheli and Nate Kmic go out as champions. Have at it below.
We’ll be approaching the story this week from several angles, through our Road to Salem features, the first installment of the Around the Nation year-in-review, an expanded slate of predictions for Stagg Bowl XXXVI and the release of the D3football.com all-Americans on our Stagg Bowl pregame show.
And this is as good a place as any to start sorting out the memories from the past three season that have run together. Off the top of my head, here’s what I recall:
2005: The Pete Schmitt (non-)TD before the half becomes the first instant replay review in D3 history, and a 95-yard Nate Kmic TD run helps put away a 35-28 Mount Union win.
2006: UW-W’s Derek Stanley makes a great catch along the sidelines as UW-W tries to send longtime coach Bob Berezowitz out a champion, but it’s Pierre Garcon who goes airborne for a TD in leading Mount Union to a 35-16 win. Micheli comes off the bench to go 18 of 22 and win MVP honors.
2007: Two-time champion sends one of the most talented and statistically dominant teams in Division III history to Salem, but an early goal-line stand, a determined 239-yard rushing day from Justin Beaver, and the running of QB Danny Jones, a Cal Lutheran transfer, lifted Whitewater to the title.
2008: You tell us how the story will end.
I’m sure I’m not remembering some of the numbers correctly, or mixing up the Kmic and Garcon big plays, but that illustrates my point. After three of these, some of the details are beginning to run together. D3football.com will re-visit the games this week and get all the details straight leading up to this week’s webcast of the championship game.
R24aider,
Every kids dream. Get two or three rings that they did NOTHING to earn.
And spare me the propaganda about “Every Raider is important”. Or what a privilege it is to put on the helmet. The last 100 kids on that roster could smoke crack every night all year long, miss every single practice and Mount is in the Stagg Bowl this year.
MUC01Nashvegas,
Gotcha! Now I understand. Wow. Scary to think how many yards Kmic would have gone off for if he hadn’t been stopped for a quarter!
whats really amazing is that Ohio has 8 DI schools and I don’t even know how many DII ncaa and naia. Still Mt gets 200+kid out every year. Wisconsin has 1 DI team. What does that tell you about the coaching staff at Mount, they are argueably the best in the country. What was that I said about a little luck?
This is actually somewhat of a funny statement…even with Whitewater’s success over the past few years Wisconsin is very divided when it comes to the D3 schools…the pride in the WIAC is pretty strong and kids who don’t get looks at the D1 or D2 level would rather go to a WIAC school within their hometown area…that is why the WIAC is so strong and has had so much success in the past few years…players would rather play for a La Crosse or Eau Claire or Stevens Point and try to knock Whitewater off and make their own mark instead of just joining the top team…it hasn’t been until the last couple of years that we have seen a few different states popping up on the roster for WW…I can’t complain with the results…but I also wish Wisconsin had more D1 college football teams…I think Wisconsin prep football would get a little more attention that way as a state the produces some great talent year in and year out…look at UMD’s roster…the team that just won the D2 national championship…half of that roster was Wisconsin players…Minnesota and the Dakota’s recruit Wisconsin VERY heavy…so although Ohio has a bunch of competition within the state…Wisconsin gets a ton of the recruiting competition from outside of the state as well…
Thanks to the “powers that be” that orchestrated the live video feed of both games. It would be nice—but maybe impossible?—to have a longer time-spread between the start-time of the two games.
Every kids dream. Get two or three rings that they did NOTHING to earn.
And spare me the propaganda about “Every Raider is important”. Or what a privilege it is to put on the helmet. The last 100 kids on that roster could smoke crack every night all year long, miss every single practice and Mount is in the Stagg Bowl this year.
I’m not saying I disagree with you on the amount of kids not meaning all that much…but I do have to admit that its obvious this is why their program is successful each year and reloads each year…give credit where it’s due…and I know at least for certain national championships Whitewater has won…not every player gets a ring…and that is why soo many kids are out their busting their butt and not quitting when they see 200 other kids out their doing the same…it’s for a chance to get that ring…
bleedpurple,
not that I’m one to defend the MUC roster size, as I have been very vocal against the practice of having a 180-200 man roster. However, for two years my son did not play at Hobart and never did he feel that he “did nothing” for the team. Luckily, he was able to start for two years and have a wonderful exoerience with it. His calss went 34-9 over four years, made the playoffs all four years, and won the Liberty League (outright twice, shared once) for thre of the last four years. An unbelievable experience for him….and me for that matter.
The point is that as a scout player, you are actually doing quite a bit for the team. You get absolutely no glory, nor even recognition from your peers and coaches sometimes. I do believe that kids who help the team get ready for the next opponent do actually feel vested with the teams success. I also feel that they enjoy the experience.
Most kids though, will want more and may not be happy with the “scout only” monicer. These kids will transfer to another school to play or quit altogether. The numbers say that many do this.
But, this year and each year, every kid that put on a helmet can all say they did their part to make a champion.
One other question for the MU fans…how many D3 programs are in Ohio?
I can see it now: Celebrity Deathmatch between bleed purple and r24aider! Everyone, let’s chill, hope for a great game, and Warhawk Trombone, I hope you get to play at the game with that great UWW pep band.
T_unit14. So far as I know, there are 10 D3 programs in Ohio. All of them are in the OAC. I’m not sure if there are any outside of that conference.
YB,
We’re saying a lot of the same stuff about variety. I’ve understood you each of your numerous times about saying it’s fair and they’ve earned it. Feel free to stop defending yourself, we’re just two guys throwing out some ideas. 🙂
This comes up every year. I’ve even advocated Cincinnati and other Ohio schools giving him a look. (Cincy’s coach is actually the architect of D2 Grand Valley’s dynasty)
We know Kent State and Princeton seriously pursued him. Who knows who else. In the end, Larry is an MUC guy (former quarterback and grad), he’s the AD, his family was raised in Ohio and he believes in the D3 mission.
He’s also reportedly really competitive (he once half-seriously complained that he’s 4 or 5 weeks behind most of his competition in recruiting each year) … so once you have everything in place, it’s giving up a lot start over.
If I built a dynasty at my alma mater (aka the only place I ever loved), I’d ride it til the wheels fell off. Wouldn’t you?
It’s huge advantage, not so much the size of the school, but the fact its a state school and in-state kids pay much less in tuition than most private D3s.
The NJAC is the only really comparable league I can think of off top. But both of those conferences have roster limits (100 I think) so that no one team can use that to stockpile talent.
JV teams and rosters of 150+ are not that uncommon in other Division III conferences; how many have a realistic chance of playing on that size a roster, who knows? I think Mount Union, St. John’s and several other schools like that feel if a kid is paying his own way and wants to be on the team, they are not going to turn him away. He’s going to get a good D3 education in the process, and the numbers help the competition in practice, where the cream rises to the top.
R24aider,
I agree, e-mail the ESPN ombudsman. I’ve long thought that their college football shows would do fans a great service by spending one two-minute segment each week on other divisions. The general fan doesn’t give a crap about the MAC or Sun Belt either.
Or, you can do what I did … stop watching ESPN. Well, SportsCenter anyway.
Yeah,
meant to say this … the big difference between Wisconsin and a lot of other places isn’t the state system and affordable tuition alone.
In Wisc., there is UW-Madison, and then the WIAC, and then small D3 privates.
In a comparable state like Michigan, there’s UM at Ann Arbor and Michigan State. There’s CMU, EMU, WMU. There’s Grand Valley, Saginaw and the whole GLIAC in D2.
By the time all those schools are finished giving out scholarships, Division III gets its pick of what’s left.
To me, that’s essentially the difference between the WIAC and the MIAA on the scale of D3 conferences.
(obviously no school recruits 100 percent within state lines, but you get the picture)
It’s right there with New York, Illinois, Penn., Mass. and Wisc. as the state home to the most D3 teams.
Off top
OAC (10): MUC, JCU, ONU, B-W, Capital, Marietta, Muskingum, Otterbein
NCAC (8): Wittenberg, Defiance, Oberlin, Kenyon, Ohio Wesleyan, Hiram
Wooster, Denison
HCAC: MSJ, Bluffton
UAA: Case Western
21?
NAIA
Malone
Tiffin
D2
Ashland
Lake Erie
sure a ton more
D1
Ohio State
Cincinnati
Kent
Akron
Miami
Toledo
?
Anyway, after Pa. and Michigan, Ohio and Virginia are some of the ones with the most other divisions/schools in competition for the second-level talent.
I ramble.
D3Keith,
I think you’re overestimating how many programs have such huge rosters. Most programs will tell a kid that he is not good enough to play and will not let them come to camp. They even will deter a kid from walking-on if the kid is seen as over his head. No one wants a kid to get hurt because of a lack of athletic ability.
The real question is: Is there a positive correlation between such a huge roster and winning percentage. Or in MUC’s case, total and complete long term domination of the national scene.
There are other things that go into the domination of MUC football. Many DI or D2 players may prefer to play for more years and win a National Championship. Many players who might walk onto the Buckeyes field decide to go to the second most known football team in Ohio. Coaching. High expectations, etc.
But, you are wrong about huge rosters being commonplace.
I think the one thing that kept the fun in the game for a lot of us non-MUC peeps was St. John’s win in 2003 and then the UMHB/Linfield Stagg Bowl the next year.
Suddenly, it was fair game for other elite programs to aim for Salem and believe they could get there, even if they had to beat MUC to do it.
Before that, the PRs had been unbeaten (-able) in Salem. Now with the SJU and UWW losses, it’s not a foregone conclusion even when they are there.
I don’t think it’s uncommon in any sport for only a small amount of the teams to have a “realistic” (although I’d contend “likely” is probably a better word) shot at the title; the deal we have in Division III is that a good bunch of the conference champions have a clear path to the championship game.
Like anyone else, you have to play well a lot of weeks in a row; it might be the hardest championship in sports to win. You can mess up once during the season, max twice, and not at all during the a playoff run half as long as the season. Wow.
I don’t think it’s that MUC is unbeatable; it’s that really only a few teams have been special enough AND played well enough on that day to get the job done.
At the rate we’re going, we’ll start to have to say the same thing about UW-W.
It can happen, YB.
It doesn’t, but it can. We’ve seen it done.
1) A clear path, in that you know what they have to do, but it’s not like a likely thing. The conference champions in the East weren’t given a shot by the guys here to beat MUC, so I have to disagree. I asked Pat if he could do some different analysis on East teams beyond just saying best case they’ll lose in Alliance. He said “Why bother?” When asked who would win the East, I think all three of the guys basically said “Next question.” 32 teams make the playoffs, but I think even then, only 2-3 teams have a likely shot at winning a NT. In most sports, the playoffs mean anything goes. In D-III, we don’t even get that. I don’t think there’s a great path to the finals for most teams
2) MUC is suddenly “beatable” since the 2004 Stagg Bowl? There’s hope for other teams? They’ve gone 56-2 since then. How is that hope?
How can I be overestimating when I didn’t even estimate?
I said it’s not that uncommon for teams to have 150+ kids in camp and/or have JV programs.
I punched in the numbers for Kickoff, it’s not only Mount Union and St. John’s. There are 6-4 teams and teams in mediocre leagues that bring that many kids to camp.
I realize there’s a difference between 200 and some number well over 100. Maybe I should lower the number to about 125, but to be certain, the name of the game in Division III recruiting is numbers. Because coaches don’t have the advantage of scouting these guys in person, they often take as many as they can and let them sort themselves out.
I’m not making any value judgement on that practice, just telling you that it happens, and not just at the elite programs.
I have not seen that to be the case in “most” programs, but I don’t doubt that’s true some places. Generally, though, Division III coaches will take most any player who finished his high school career.
A lot will weed themselves out very early in camp or over the course of their careers.
I think I was in a freshman class of 50 and we had maybe 17 or 20 guys by the time I finished, and that was a good retention rate.
That is a good question. Without a doubt a huge roster fosters competition within the program and at individual positions, and certainly they’re working with lots of kids as backups who could start elsewhere.
But by the same token, I don’t think kids who go to big programs like that are generally conned into it. Maybe. But I think they go in with the confidence that football players have, that they will eventually win a job. Some probably could start four years elsewhere or maybe one year at a championship caliber program, and they pick the latter.
A lot of guys are like your son or like I was as a player, you go, you pay your dues for a year or two, start for two years, end up being a pretty key player on a pretty darn good team, but maybe not an all-American … and that’s your career.
At the end, you have a great education and great life experiences to show for it, and if you stayed on the team all four years, that’s true no matter how significant your on-field role was.
Pretty true. Chuck Moore, if I recall correctly, once told me he had interest from Akron and Kent State and said why should I go there and hope to go 6-6 (paraphrasing) when I can go to Mount and compete for championships.
Then you have Kmic, an all-state rusher who couldn’t get a sniff from dream school Bowling Green … so he “ended up” at Mount Union.
Even their transfers are generally native Ohio guys who don’t work out at other places (OSU, Pitt and St. Cloud St. being some of the ones I remember. Malone) and come back to be closer to home.
But that’s not terribly uncommon in D3 either.
Well, people can make up their own minds as to who’s right and who’s wrong here. I’d like to think I have a fairly broad perspective on the matter from years of visiting D3 schools from coast to coast and asking their coaches about these types of things, but whatever.
I would love to eventually crunch the numbers from Kickoff, where we asked every team how many kids came to camp. Some were in the 30s and 40s, a lot were in the 100s.
I guess “right” or “wrong” here depends on the definition of “huge” and “commonplace.”
I will say this … the new and improved thoughtful Bartman is one whose posts I’ll actually read and respond to. You’re coming around. 😉
Come on now Bleed, the comment about the last 100 kids on the roster was out of line. Each one of those 100 kids is going to practice every day and working to get better. In the process, they are providing competition to the top tiers on the depth chart and without them, teams would not be successful. Any good coach, and I’m sure coach Kehres, would say the same thing. We teach our kids that it’s the effort and the journey that matters, and these kids are pursuing a dream. I’ll bet there are many starters on the best teams that were once a part of those 100. Maybe they only get the start as a senior, but what an accomplishment for them.
As for the enrollment issue, UWW has about 100 kids on the roster, and 20 are from IL, and only a few start. Chicago and the NW suburbs are less than a two hour drive, so it’s not as though UWW gets all these out of state kids. I agree the public funding helps, but even that arguement is limited. It’s not about the number of kids in the school, it’s about the number of good football players. The Catholic League high schools are a perfect example. They are hugely successful in IL high school football-but their enrollments are small in comparison. They simply attract and recruit really good players. UWW may have a large enrollment, but it’s not the size of the school or roster that matters, it’s the recruiting of good players, and then the good coaching that makes the program.
YB,
You seem determined to disagree. That’s fine.
I said ’03 and ’04 represented hope … it hasn’t turned out that way since, but it was tangible evidence for teams that it could be done.
If you want to nitpick, 56-2 isn’t unbeatable. Means they’ve been beaten twice. Nobody said it’s common, likely or even expected, but it can be done.
I agree, having the same teams win all the time can take the fun out of it to some degree. But by the same token, nothing is known until it happens. There is hope. There is suspense. There is
Frankly, the expectation of Mount Union “always” winning makes it all the more significant when they lose, both inside and outside the program.
And I think lots of teams start the season with the goal of winning the champions, and most of them don’t get there. There are lots of other ways to define a sucessful season, to enjoy the season and all that. In terms of national championships, sure variety would be nice.
But as long as I’ve been watching, there’s really only been two Stagg Bowl blowouts (1997 MUC-Lyco and 2002 MUC-Trinity). Every other team that’s played Mount Union in Salem belonged on the same field as them.
They’ve been “beatable” a lot of times. That Mount Union still wins those games more often than not is a testament to their consistency and excellence.
I have personally witnessed a lot of special teams, ones that I thought had “it” — that special championship something, the talent to outplay Mount Union — not get it done. That makes them even more impressive, the closer you watch.
YB,
I still think “anything goes” for the most part in our playoffs. Sure, you know Mount Union’s going to be one of the last four teams standing. BUT, that creates suspense each week when someone plays them that the unexpected might happen, and it’s also true that other elite teams can beat them on a given day … so I think the suspense is there in the later rounds, regardless of whether or not they are actually upset. Fans crave that feeling going in that today might be the day. Usually in the first round or three it’s not the day. But in the semis and Stagg, it most certainly can be.
I’ll let you in on a little something. I once was you. I wrote what I later thought was an ill-advised ATN column pleading for a little parity by having some other team beat Mount Union in a certain semifinal. I got a LOT of flak for it. You could find it if you looked hard enough.
Me personally, I gained a new appreciation for MUC after the 2003 and ’04 losses and the ways they’ve won since, with an overhauled coaching staff, with young teams, coming off losses … I don’t think the ’05 or ’06 victories were a given by any means.
To me, the past 6 years or so, maybe longer, it hasn’t been a foregone conclusion that they’ll win …
Get to the semis, yes 🙂
So, 10 o’clock on Saturday? Seriously? Don’t remember where I heard that, maybe my roommate found it on the TV listings. Whitewater’s graduation ceremony? 10 o’clock on Saturday. I know it’s not new, but do you skip walking to head to Salem for the fourth year in a row (as a fan of course) or sit through two hours of a pain staking – hot graduation ceremony and still not get to see it live.
I’m in the same predicament. I know Dr. Telfer (UWW Chancellor) is a football fan, so maybe we should try to contact him and see what we can do.
Best case: enough of us get together and talk them into showing the game in the fieldhouse during the ceremony.
More likely: score updates between speeches?
Worst case: text messages.
Being a WW fan and having the opportunity to finally “slay the monster” known as Mount Union gave me a great appreciation for D3 football…I decided against playing D3 football or even trying out because of the fact everyone I talked to (who didn’t play in college) said that D3 is glorified high school football with a bunch of 1st and 2nd team all conference high schoolers who couldn’t go D1 or D2…well obviously I found out different and I saw what D3 really was…it is the guys who just play for the love of the game and the ones who don’t want to let the dream go…it’s the guys who were never given anything and had to earn everything…it’s those players like Justin Beaver and Nate Kmic who weren’t “D1 prototypes”…a guy like Derek Stanley who may not be your typical 6’4 WR…he’s in the NFL now and doing pretty good for being just a D3 player…seeing a guy like Pierre Garcon or Derek Stanley succeed is why I love watching D3 football…sure my team has been in the finals all 4 years I’ve been to college…but I can openly say I have never felt any win within our conference or playoffs was a given…I think that a lot of fans perceptions are the same as their teams…”well we are playing MU…we’ll give it our best shot…but they are MU…they will beat us”…I had these exact same thoughts in 06 after losing to MUC in 05…however…WW was always right there with them…I actually think Whitewaters 05 team had more talent then the 07 team but we lost in 05 and 06…the 07 team saw that MU isn’t that unstoppable force…they knew they were every bit as good as MU and that confidence flowed over to the fans…we might not have talked too much of a big game coming into the 07 game…but quite a few WW fans felt the previous two years could have been ours…what this all means is that D3 teams can look at MU and be intimidated and in awe of how good they really are…or they can try scheduling games with the good teams and better themselves like WW did by playing a certain team in non-conference games a few years before their title runs…
Here’s where I get a little upset…I am all about the playoffs and the automatic bids are the best way to go for conference champs…but seeing some conferences #2 and even #3 schools not make it into the playoffs over a weaker conferences #1 program is why I think the D3 field looks “water down” if you will…I think this is why we see so many high scores in the playoffs and then we get this pre conceived notion that only a few teams are pretty good each year when in reality theres a ton of good teams out there who can compete with the likes of WW each week but only 2 schools max from one conference are going to get into the playoffs…and that is only a very few conferences that get that shot…WW was an “at large” this year…and they are in the national championship…I know they are a rare at large but I wonder if a few other at larges would have success given a shot over some weaker conference opponents…sorry for the “story” I just wrote…
when is said over weaker conference opponents…I should have said over weaker conference champions
Bartman,
I absolutely agree with you regarding the Scout team! They are vital. And having them put in full effort with a good attitude is vital!. It’s the extra 100 kids I’m talking about. And many of those extra kids won’t even sniff the scout team. The kids are to be admired. However, many of those kids could have a better chance at being a genuine contributor at another school with a more reasonable roster size. But to each his own. I’m not knocking the kid’s decisions. It’s their life. Just telling it like it is regarding their role on the current team. Nothing wrong with living out a dream. Rudy may have never seen the field at Mount!! Anyway, mostly poking fun. 210 is a lot of players!
My high school buddies started the “JUG” game I C had a gym downtown not much built on South Hill.it was great to watch Hobart,Cortland,Springfield,Glassboro etc. grow..ending the 3rd quarter of my life I still get excited on Sat. am’s getting my Bomber helmet (number 93) and my blue sweats on,,get my radio tuned to FM 91.7…and now this fancy computer stuff ready…tell ya what guys its a thrill..next I get to watch another Stagg Bowl on T V..enjoy the day life is great
Keith–
Well, I think the conversation began with the idea of “excitement” for this game, and while you’re correct that, in a literal sense, MUC going 56-2 does not make them “unbeatable”, it can create the IMPRESSION that things are a foregone conclusion, especially when analysts do cursory analysis of the possibility of an upset. While 244-11-1 since 1990 is again, not unbeatable, can you blame the fans for thinking otherwise?
I was excited when IC played Mount last season. Excited to see my team match up against the best of the best. But I was also sad, because I knew that, barring a miracle it was one and done.
Playing against MUC is kind of like watching your team throw a Hail Mary at the end of a close game. You know that anything’s possible, and Hail Mary’s are always fun but that excitement is tempered a bit by the knowledge that you’re not likely to see a good result.
I think you’re right that the Stagg Bowl could very well be a close game, and it’s obviously going to be well played. But, I think that’s just as likely to happen if we’d had MHB and Wheaton no?
I am enjoying the debate immensely.
Regarding MUC roster size, those guys could have a roster of 45 players and only sub in when injuries arise and they’d be fine. It’s not the 209th best player on the roster that makes Nate Kimic impossible to stop. Also, the NCAA limits playoff rosters correct? So once you’re in the class of 32, doesn’t that advantage go out the window?
It does bring up an interesting question: Would you rather be on the bench at Mount and get to experience all the things that go along with that program, or be a four-year starter at a weaker college? Never having played, I can say I’d prefer to be on the field, but yes, to each his own.
hummm what’d I do
Affordable tuition and lax admission standards are a huge advantage for state schools such as those in the WIAC, not to mention taxpayer funding for first rate facilities. In Minnesota we have no state supported D3 schools. If I had a kid good enough to get a scholarship at a D2 school he’d go there no matter how much I love St. John’s football, thirty grand a year for tuition is too high a price to pay to watch a half dozen home games a season, even at majestic Clemens Stadium. By the way, there are as many football playing colleges in Minnesota as there are in Texas! Most of our good players play D2, and a few are good enough for D1. The rest play in the MIAC and other small private schools. Big state schools could take over D3 football in the near future, especially in states like Wisconsin that have no D2 schools.
Enough already. My experience at a DIII college has convinced me there are three classes of teams: weak teams that get in the playoffs because the win there conference, good teams that get in and can make some things happen every now and again and Mount Union and Whitewater! UMHB crushes their opponents leading to the UWW game, has all games at home and cannot come close to beating Whitewater. Something has to be done or there will be no one who cares about the DIII playoffs. Maybe a two tiered playoff system where the good teams are on one side of the bracket and the “other” teams the other side. That way someone else will get to the Stagg Bowl each year. Just look at all the teams who made the playoffs and would be crushed by either Whitewater or the Mount. It is getting rather silly!
Maybe they sould seperate the divisions based on school size, the number of players, academic standards or something someone more atuned than this guy can think of to make it better. Right now having the same two times in the finals four years in a row does not serve DIII well.
I believe Wisconsin and Minnesota still have a reciprocity agreement in place, so MN residents pay in-state tuition at the UW System schools, and vice versa. I don’t know how much that has helped UWW, but it is a significant factor for the 4 WIAC schools within 50 miles of the WI/MN border (5 if you want to count UW-SUperior in bball). Basically, MN kids who want to play DIII but don’t want the private school price tag always have that as an option.
Bleedpurple,
IN OHIO IF A KID WHO THINKS HE’S A DI PROSPECT AND DOESN’T GET A LOOK FROM OSU, HE’LL PROBABLY GET OFFERS FROM AKRON, KENT, BG, MALONE AND A DOZEN OTHERS BEFORE HE EVEN LOOKS AT MOUNT. IN WISCONSIN ITS THE BADGERS OR UWW. ALSO, CRACKING ON KIDS DOWN ON THE DEPTH CHART AT MOUNT IS DOWN RIGHT STUPID. THOSE KIDS COULD HAVE CHOSEN 9 OTHER DIII SCHOOLS IN THE STATE. THE RING DOES MATTER!!!!
College Football in OH (38 Schools)-
Division II (FBS) – 7 Schools:
Ohio State
Akron
Kent
Miami
Toledo
Bowling Green
Ohio U.
Division I (FCS) – 2 Schools:
Youngstown State
U. of Dayton
Diviaion II – 4 Schools:
Ashland
Central State
Findlay
Tiffin
Division III – 21 Schools:
Baldwin College
Capital
Heidelberg
John Carroll
Marietta
Mount Union
Muskingum
ONU
Otterbein
Wilmington
Bluffton
Mt. Saint Josephs
Defiance
Case Western Reserve
Denison
Hiram
Kenyon
Oberlin
Ohio Wesleyan
Wittenberg
Wooster
NAIA – 4 Schools:
Malone
Walsh
Ohio Dominican
Urbana
piper,
The two tiered system you describe won’t work because then the Stagg Bwol would’nt be a game between the two best teams. The championship game would be played prior to the Stagg. The play-off system should not be tinckered with because the end result would always be skewed.
I don’t have any ideas though so I’ll have to get back once I think it through and solve the problem 🙂
I would love to see UWW have this kind of success every year, but that kind of stuff just doesn’t happen very often in this conference. As I’ve said before, I don’t know enough about the OAC or the ASC to comment on how Mount Union and UMHB have been able to dominate their conferences. However, I do know a bit about the WIAC, and I’d be shocked if UWW keeps dominating like this for much longer. There are just too many good programs in this conference, and soon enough someone else is going to step up.
La Crosee has had a couple of down years, but they’ve won 2 Stagg Bowls, and they will be back soon. Stevens Point was co-champion this year with UWW. Eau Claire won a playoff game last year, and was nationally ranked most of this season. The rest of the conference has some work to do to to compete for championships, but at the same time, every week in conference is a battle, and nobody in the country is going to overlook a WIAC team in a non-conference matchup.
What has set these teams apart during their respective runs (UWW since ’05, MUC since 1993) is that they prove it on a national level. The playoff system throws conference affiliation out the window, and gives every team a fair chance to see where they stand. These two teams have been the best in the land for the last four years, and you just have to appreciate that for what it is.
Everything goes in cycles, MUC’s cycle has just lasted longer than any in recent memory. Soon enough, other programs will begin to mimic the MUC theory on building a great football program and there will be a changing of the guard. Just look at some of the other programs at other levels….USC for example, Florida, Oklahoma, Appalachian St, etc. Meanwhile, the other old school dominant programs have lost their luster; Notre Dame, Florida St, Nebraska. Consistency is the key and MU and UWW have unlocked the secret for D3.
The same thing happens in basketball. Look at UNC and Duke for example and, at the same time, programs like Kentucky and Indiana have faded.
Don’t you think people would have said the same thing about Augustana and Ithaca in the 80’s? This media that we have to discuss the issues only magnifies the situation. We didn’t have this 20 years ago. Appreciate it for what it is and stay true to your own school, who knows they may rise to dominance one day too.
I can’t tell you how excited I am to see what Monmouth does over the next couple of years…they have their entire offense returning from an 11-1 team. They may not be ready to win a regional title, but they are headed in the right direction. Keep the hope that makes you passionate fans and enjoy the game next Saturday…
R24aider
I understand what you are saying about the amount of schools that offer football in Ohio vs Wisconsin…but there are also a bunch of other private D3 teams in Wisconsin as well…I think the total number of schools is somewhere in the 12-15 range…still no where near the number in Ohio but then you have to recognize that a bunch of other states recognize this as well…Minnesota’s D2’s recruit Wisconsin very very hard…also…Michigan’s D2 conference recruits here hard as well…and last but not least we have the Dakota schools who invade Wisconsin each year looking for players…so yes Ohio has a ton more schools within your own state…but Wisconsin has more interest from outside of the state as well…most of the time…D3 football is your last choice…and even then WW isn’t the top school…as I stated earlier…the WIAC is a conference built on pride for the area you grew up…most of these kids who play for schools in the WIAC play at one of the schools near their high school…so WW isn’t always on the top of their list…plus every WIAC school is usually known more for one major the another…WW is nationally known for business…platteville for their engineering…every school has some sort of special draw that brings different players in…90% of these kids go to school for education first…football second
Just for comparison sake…
College FB teams in WI:
D1 FBS:
Wisconsin
D3:
WIAC schools: Whitewater, Platteville, La Crosse, River Falls, Stout, Eau Claire, Stevens Point, Oshkosh
Concordia – Wisconsin
Wisconsin Lutheran
Carthage
St. Norbert
Lakeland
Beloit
Carroll
Lawrence
Maranatha Baptist
Ripon
Total college football programs in WI:19
Total population of WI (2007 est.): 5,601,640
Total college football programs in OH: 38
Total population of OH (2007 est.): 11,466,917
I had no idea what the results of this would be going in, but it’s kind of interesting how close the overall population to FB program ratio is. It would take a lot of statistical analysis, but it would also be interesting to see what % of in-state players each roster has. I know Ohio is a good HS football state, but that is a lot of D1 talent for one state to produce, and I would think those programs recruit more on a regional/national level. That could push more average players towards the D2/D3 programs, of which MUC is far and away the most successful.
neutralobserver said “In Minnesota we have no state supported D3 schools. ”
I’m sorry but you are wrong there. The University of Minnesota-Morris is a full member of Division III in the UMAC in football.
R24aider and Mikem,
I don’t know how to make this any more clear:
I am NOT cracking on the kids! I stated there’s nothing wrong with pursuing a dream. I stated the kids have the right to make whatever decision they want.
If a kid wants to be number 210 on the NCAA D3 runner-ups, God bless him. Any D3 athlete works way too hard for the love of the sport for me to crack on him.
My point simply was that the bottom 100 didn’t have an impact on this year’s team. I think players 50-110 provided all the competition the starters were going to get at practice.
Mikem, that’s 100 more players than are on the UWW roster. How can you say those 100 are essential to any winning program?
Do I think having 210 players gives Mount some sort of advantage? NO
What do I think of Mount having 210 players? I think it’s funny.
bleedpurple,
How many national championships does uww have? Mount will have 10 after next week. Maybe uww better pick up another 100 kids! I hope your still in a funny mood after Sat. when mount completes a PERFECT SEASON.
Here we go…just what I was waiting for…the first team to make a dumb comment about who’s going to win…now all the trash talking can officially begin…thanks R24aider!
kirasdad
You missed Lake Erie College first year DII. Urbana and Ohio Dominican are beginning the process to go DII and Notre Dame College (NAIA) will have a club team next year and varisty the year after.
T_Unit14
being confident in the team you support is dumb? It would be dumb if I was like bleedpurple and constantly say negative things about the opposing team. Ok, to make you happy, I won’ t think mount will win. By the way, your welcome, what else do you have to do!
R24–
The question is, do those extra hundred player make the difference between UW-W and MUC. I don’t think they do. I think it’s the starters, guys like Kimic, Garcon, Pugh, Moore, all the great players that have come through. Depth helps, but at the level of 200+ kids, I don’t think they’re making a great impact on the team…
Would a team with 300 kids be better than MUC? If Utica showed up next season with a 300 man roster, would they be the favorite to with the Stagg Bowl?
R24aider
Please don’t be offended if neither UWW nor their backers are the slightest bit intimidated of THE MOUNT, THE PROGRAM, THE MACHINE. We aren’t.
Since I’m in a “funny mood”, I’ll tell you another thing that is funny. It’s funny how sensitive some Mount Union backers are about their precious program. If anyone dare question any aspect of it, watch out!
Mount Union is not a Norman Rockwell painting. It is an imperfect school with imperfect people running it. It has an imperfect football team and it has an imperfect football coach. It wins a lot of games and it loses games. It wins more than it loses. It has won 2 National Championships in the last 5 years. In the last 4 Stagg bowls in which it has appeared, Mount Union has won 2 and lost 2. Last year Mount Union lost to UWW by 10 points.
Surprise, surprise. You are picking Mount Union to win. Just like you did last year.
YeahBombers,
THIS THING OR PROBLEM YOU GUYS HAVE WITH THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON THE ROSTER IS RIDICULOUS. EARLIER THE QUESTION SOMEHOW CAME UP, I MENTIONED THE NUMBER OF KIDS AND EVERYBODY WENT NUTS. YOU ARE RIGHT ONLY 11 WILL LINE UP ON EACH SIDE OF THE BALL. BUT, IF UTICA COULD GET LIKE YOU SAY 300 KIDS, DON’T YOU THINK THEY WOULD HAVE 22 PRETTY DARN GOOD KIDS IN THAT BUNCH? NUMBERS DEFINATELY HELP NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE THINKS.
bleedpurple,
YOU ARE OFF YOUR ROCKER. YOU MUST BE THE COMIC RELIEF FOR UWW. YOU HAVE NOT SAID ON SENSIBLE THING. DID YOU THINK UWW WOULD WIN IN THE FIRST TWO STAGGS? DID YOU THINK THEY WOULD WIN LAST YEAR? HEY MAN I GUESS WE HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON, WE BELIEVE IN OUR TEAMS.
R24aider,
I think you are starting to understand me!
Raider,
I never said there was a problem with it at all. I simply questioned the impact of it. Please don’t put words into my mouth. As I said, I think MUC wins because their starting RB is better than everyone else’s. And their QB. And the WR’s, OL’s etc. Starters are the ones who make the most impact. Yes, perhaps in practice that depth helps in some way. But on Saturday, when the two teams line up, it’s your best 20-30 vs. their best 22-30.
Also, typing in all caps just makes your post harder to read. It doesn’t make your arguments any more lucid
Agreed R24aider…I don’t think it’s dumb for backing your team…I just think that I’m not intimidated by the MU everyone else is…I know they are beatable…I truthfully believe in 2005 WW had the better team but the scoreboard showed otherwise…in 2006…I think mistakes are what lost us that game but AGAIN…MU is that good and mistakes are forced by good teams…in 2007…the weather affected both teams and limited what MU could do through the air and WW somehow came out on top…this year…WW is young and I don’t expect much out of them at the Stagg…in fact I didn’t expect them to get here…but I’ll be cheering them on and win or lose…I’ll know we match up with MU as good as if not better then any other team…MU doesn’t scare WW anymore…but WW respects the hell outta MU…and that is why they are the class of D3…
Word on the street is James Otto is performing at the Stagg Bowl…is this true?