Last night as I was updating the NCAA playoff results by conference on the front page — something that sits on the site 52 weeks a year and only changes five times — I was struck by the old adage: The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Apologies for the un-fanciness of the standings, but here they are:
Conference W L Pct. OAC 35 8 .814 NWC 18 9 .667 MIAC 19 11 .633 E8 5 3 .625 NJAC 16 10 .615 MAC 12 8 .600 CCIW 11 9 .550 WIAC 9 8 .529 SCAC 9 8 .529 ODAC 10 9 .526 NCAC 10 9 .526 ASC 11 10 .524 ACFC 4 4 .500 UAA 1 1 .500 PAC 6 8 .429 Independents 5 7 .417 UCAA/LL 7 11 .389 FFC (defunct) 3 5 .375 IIAC 6 11 .353 Centennial 4 9 .308 SCIAC 2 5 .286 Dixie/USAC 2 6 .250 MWC 1 8 .111 HCAC 1 8 .111 MIAA 0 7 .000 IBC 0 7 .000 NEFC 0 8 .000
Who gained and who lost? Well, I think the concept that a rematch automatically follows the original game took a big beating (thankfully). I’ve been reminding people all season that a team playing its first game loses to another team playing its second game does not mean that team is automatically better.
Conferences which gained this week
Northwest Conference: League champion Whitworth became the third conference team to win a playoff game this weekend with the first-round victory against Occidental. It probably is the only one the NWC will get this year but serves as a reminder that the league is not a one-trick pony. (And that’s only for people who don’t remember Pacific Lutheran.)
Ohio Athletic Conference: No. 1 and No. 2 seeds and two big blowouts. ‘Nuff said.
Empire 8: Two W’s for a league that hasn’t sponsored football for very long. The 5-3 record looks a lot better than 3-3 did.
Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference: Two wins gets the league, much maligned for its 1999-2004 performance, above the .500 mark in the automatic bid era.
University Athletic Association: Off the schneid thanks to Carnegie Mellon.
Conferences which fell this week
Southern Collegiate Athletic Conference: Ouch. The SCAC has already been looked at as a one-trick pony league with Trinity the only team to qualify for the postseason. The league hasn’t won a playoff game since Roy Hampton’s ill-fated night on the Riverwalk. The Millsaps loss doesn’t help.
Old Dominion Athletic Conference: Washington and Lee’s loss is almost as bad, though no No. 8 seed has ever won a playoff game … in the two years that No. 8 seeds have existed. Only Bridgewater has won a playoff game from this league, though at least Catholic, Emory and Henry and Washington and Lee have had the opportunity.
Illini-Badger Conference: Only disbanding can pull the league out of this hole.
Liberty League: Two one-and-outs from teams that each won playoff games last year. The conference loses a little bit of the ground it gained in the 2005 playoffs.
Pat,
The ASC record will always be at a disadvantage as long as the ASC champ and runnerup have to play each other in the first or second round. The OAC always play each other but it is after the runnerup gets two games under their belt first. Maybe we can get an * by the ASC record. 🙂
Wonder what the standings would look like if you did not include wins and loses of games played between conference teams.
Ric, I count 3 OAC losses to non-OAC foes since 1999.
2003–Wheaton beats Baldwin-Wallace in the 2nd round 16-12.
2003–St John’s defeats MUC in the Stagg, 24-6
2004–UMHB defeats MUC in the semis, 38-35.
Four if you’re counting 1999, Rowan Beat Mount in overtime that year in the semis.
The losses are one thing but the problem is getting the wins to up the winning percentage. For one of the ASC teams that will always be improbable due to the “geographical” issue. An 0-1 or 1-1 record will always be there and always negatively affect the ASC winning percentage as long as two teams make the playoffs.
And the ASC doesn’t get to pad the conference record with games versus #6, #7 and #8 seeds in the first round. UMHB now catches a “#6” W&J in the second round.
Ro Cru,
You’d actually be surprised, Pat and I talked about the asterisk earlier this week and again last night. Obviously we’d never do it because you can’t change facts, but it is important to note that if you’re using those playoff records as a way to define and compare conference strength, few conferences have two playoff-worthy teams as often as the ASC, and when they do, occasionally they are lucky enough not to play each other until later.
Pat,
I don’t know if you deserve special credit for repeating the “a team’s biggest improvement is between its first game and second game” mantra. In the case of Mary Hardin-Baylor, against Christopher Newport and later in the year against Whitewater, they were obviously much better with more experience, but they had a chance to win both games and crucial turnovers doomed them. In other words, I’m not so sure not having a game under their belt had a whole lot to do with them losing at Christopher Newport, even though standard football logic might say so. And same for Concordia (Wis.) vs. North Central.
I thought CNU was good enough to legitimately beat UMHB later in the season, but I don’t know why they weren’t able to build on that win. They certainly landed with a thud.
I very much agree with you about the rematches though. The coaches that had a second crack at teams (North Central, Wittenberg and Hardin-Simmons) … well, the first two got pretty different results.
You did, however, go 15 of 16 in the score picks, Pat … did you not? You get mad props there.
I was messing around with Curry and took an L on Central. We both lost Millsaps.
I’ll check for the official tally, so I know how much ground I need to make up next week. 🙂
Hmmm, I have a question… What if a team Changes conference? Should be the W-L be considered for the conference they are in now, or the one they were in during the playoff appearance.
An example is: Brockport is 2-4 in Postseason Play. Logically, I can deduce that this has been placed in the independents as Wesley has had 4 playoff wins in the last 2 years to boost the ACFC’s standings single-handedly.
I just wonder if we’d get a better grasp on the Relative Playoff History of the conference if it went the other way.
Thoughts? I’m not saying it should be changed but just another way to look at it.
Also,
Your ODAC stat … you list the teams that have had a shot in the D3football.com/automatic bid era. I think you meant to do that, but the way you stated it left room for interpretation.
Macon and Sydney have made the playoffs in prior years, as did E&H a bunch of times.
The playoff records:
Bwater 8-5
E&H 3-5
RMC, HSC, W&L 0-1
CUA 0-3
Guilford – never been
RMC and HSC each made the East Coast final in the days just before the official formation of Division III. R-MC won the Knute Rockne Bowl in 1969, and H-SC was runner up to Montclair State in ’70 and Bridgeport in ’71.
Shut up. It does too count if you have nothing else 🙂
As for our predictions, I’ll tackle those on the thread we posted them on originally.
Port,
The standings count the affliation of the team the year it played the game. Note the FFC presence and the mention of the “Dixie” name in the list. So Ithaca’s ’01 games would be under Independents, not under the Empire 8 since that league didn’t form until ’02.
That and Brockport and the Freedom teams (Springfield & West. Conn.) are really the only examples I can think of where things would change. But by the same token, it’s hard to take Springfield’s 2000 performance as representative of the strength of a league (The E8) that didn’t exist. In the sense that they didn’t play that competition during the year … does that make any sense?
I mean, if it helps, for the extra insight, someone could go back and break it down. But personally I like it how it is.
Keith,
That makes perfect sense, and you are right….your previous post helped me also because for some reason I though the numbers were inclusive of all time. Just for the D3football.com era would reduce the chances of really any fluctuations of confernce except for the ones you mention. I also personally like it the way it is too but wanted to throw that out there.
“Your ODAC stat … you list the teams that have had a shot in the D3football.com/automatic bid era.”
Of course. Like every other stat in the blog. 🙂
Right.
What you said was, and I quote: “Only Bridgewater has won a playoff game from this league” which isn’t true without that automatic bid era caveat.
So I clarified.
Just an excuse to mention the ’69 R-MC team really.
Howard Stevens in the house!
I don’t agree with the NCAA matching up Texas teams early to “save money” but there are plenty of other situations that affect the playoff record similarly. In the north wheaton has made the playoffs 4 of the last 5 seasons and won every game until they played MUC. unfortunately that has been in the 1st or second round each year. John Carroll was moved east in 2001 (i think) and made it to the semi’s, losing to MUC. I think some other teams (not just wheaton, but even west teams) would have better playoff records if they could play a few games elsewhere before facing the big dogs, but that’s life in the NCAA.
Well, Union certainly was “outeverythinged” by SJF! Coach Audino must be scratching his head. The disparity was a surprise to us. Good luck to THE BETTER TEAM!
Keith,
Not sure what you mean by Witt getting “pretty different results.” This game was, really, another blowout. Sure, it wasn’t along the lines of the 50-something to 7 wins Cap has had to open each of the last two seasons, but if you take away some awful mistakes in the FG/PAT department, the score looks a lot worse. The FG Witt returned was a 19 yarder for a senior all conference type kicker, a chip shot. The issue was caused by a bad snap, as was one of the missed PATs. In fact, most of the “kicking” issues this year have been because of either snap or hold problems, not on the kicker.
So, play the woulda, shoulda, coulda game and give Cap those 5 points (the FG and 2 PATs) and take away Witt’s second TD off the botched FG, and you have a 37-7 game, wich is about what you would expect if you look at the stats and not the score. After the first Witt drive, Capital absolutely dominated. I’m not sure the result was much different…it was another Cap blowout.
Looking forward to being in Columbus this weekend for another rematch of sorts, this one of last year’s playoff win in Naperville. Hopefully Cap fixes the FG/PAT issues, because as we all know, eventually that stuff comes back to bite you, especially in a game as evenly matched as Cap and NCC seem to be.
Bridgewater is 10-6 in the playoffs since 2000. How are you getting 8-5, D3Keith?
Looks like the CCIW had a good day going 2-0. Things will be very different for them this week.
I wish you had the conference playoff records for all time – not just since the field was expanded. Do you think you might be able to that for all of us?
Does the D3 poll get updated/released during the play-offs? I seem to remember that it does every year.
How is being 10 secs away from beating perennial East Region Finalist Rowan on their home field (after losing there 45-14 2 yrs ago) a step back for the Statesmen?
Maybe Union laid an egg on Saturday, but Bart proved their program is going in the right direction.
labart, I don’t know if you’re referring to me, but this is what I actually said: “The conference loses a little bit of the ground it gained in the 2005 playoffs.”
GOP, maybe during the offseason but since the nature of the playoffs changed substantially in 1999 it’s the logical beginning for the modern era of the D-III postseason.
SJFF82 — it doesn’t. You can check the poll page if you like.
I gotta give it up to Hobart. I was like many others who really did not show them much respect during the regular season. HOWEVER, they proved more to me in their loss than they did with their wins in the regular season.
Rowan is tough, and to hang with them shows me something. Good luck next season.
Back to the conference records for the playoffs…
I looked today on d3football.com for the past Stagg Bowl Champions, where it showed who beat who and the rest of the playoff results. However, it is not available now because that info has been replaced with “new” stuff, which does not include the past playoff games.
What gives?
I wanted to see what the CCIW had as a record since the playoffs started – not just since the playoffs were expanded(A lot better than 11-9).
Throw me a bone here – I’m dying to see what the all-time playoff records are for the conferences. Any help?
Pat,
Ok, I didn’t see your post. Yes, the expansion is, I guess, a more modern era. But I still think we would all enjoy seeing what the all-time playoff records are for the conferences. Six years worth isn’t quite an era to me.
What gives? Nothing gives, it’s in the same spot as always:
http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/
Playoffs link on the left-hand rail.
Pat,
Sorry, I must have been looking somewhere else. That indeed was the page I was looking for.
Thank you.
Why is there a gap covering 1987-1992? The gap being the results of all the playoff games?
Because, oddly enough, this information does not compile itself, HTML does not appear from the sky, etc.
We’ve been building the history page piece by piece and yes, some years prior to our 1999 founding are unaccounted for.
Oh, and this is not my full-time job, so sometimes projects are slow to complete.
d3keith,
I think if you are using the playoff records to compare conference strength, I for one think it’s a good indicator, then to be accurate you would need to drop all playoff games against conference opponents, which by default results in a .500 record. That drags down the records of the better conferences and improves the records of the not so good conferences.
p.s. thanks for all the good info this site provides us
Pat,
I was just curious. This is still the best site for d3 football. Believe me, I greatly appreciate all the work you and your staff have done!
Without this site I would be trapped in a CCIW bubble, not knowing what is going on around the country.
Speaking of a CCIW bubble – from the years 1973 through 1987, and 1993 through 1998, the CCIW was 18-7 in the playoffs with 4 National Championships.
Yeah,
SJF, your memory has failed you. We do a vote after the last week of the regular season and then again after the Stagg Bowl. I guess it makes sense, as the playoffs are a little more relevant than the poll as they’re going on.
SeanGOP, that information for the missing years is available in the Stagg Bowl media guide, which I have. I don’t believe it’s online. If you’re nice, I might be persuaded to look it up and compile it for you, but I don’t know what you’re trying to prove. You already know Augustana won it four times in a row and was competitive in other years, I’m pretty sure they have the second-best conference record all time, challenged only maybe by the current members of the E8, since Ithaca won three in four years. But going back, I don’t think anyone would catch the OAC, which also had some good Baldwin-Wallace years and a title.
1999 is a logical start point since it was the beginning of the 28-team playoffs and pool system, the beginning of us being around to track and also the first year (or one of the first) the NWC and other teams from the NAIA became eligible for the D3 title. Before then, every conference didn’t have a champion in the field each year, so non-success/non-opportunity could be explained away as committee bias/problem of the system, rather than having a chance to prove themselves on the field and either doing the job or not.
FWIW.
My bust,
Ithaca never won 3 of 4, they won in 88 and 91 and also in ’79, and have been to two other Stagg Bowls.
After Mount Union, I guess Augie, Ithaca and Rowan are tied with five appearances each.
Kid,
“Bridgewater is 10-6 in the playoffs since 2000. How are you getting 8-5, D3Keith?”
Probably from looking at last year’s Stagg Bowl media guide (since I don’t have the new one from this year yet, obviously), which probably had information last updated BEFORE last year’s playoffs.
Let me guess, Bridgewater was 2-1 last year. Lost at Wesley, won 2 games to get there?
Re: the Capital game,
The updates we were getting at Carnegie Mellon had Witt in the game for a while, that’s what I meant by a different result. 20-14 midway through the third quarter sounds a lot different than 43-0 at the half in the first game.
I’m not really interested in discussing “take away this or that” that actually happened. Maybe the score wasn’t reflective of how the game was going, you would know better than me since I wasn’t there. Mine was just a loosely-formed opinion from afar.
speedy big boy,
That’s an interesting point. Valid.
I don’t think we need to alter the playoff records so much as be careful what we’re using them to prove. Does the 35-8 OAC mean it’s better than the 0-7 IBFC or 0-7 MIAA? Yes.
But the NJAC’s 16-10 might not be better than the CCIW’s 11-9, since you could argue one is partially the product of high seeds running through a weak east and the other is affected by running into Mount Union every year.
Same with the MIAA champ often getting Wheaton or Mount Union off the bat, etc.
Other conferences are largely propped up by one team (i.e. Bridgewater & ODAC) that’s been dominant during the six years of expanded playoffs.
The records aren’t absolute proof of anything, but they are what they are.
Interesting, if nothing else.
We could asterisk intraconference games. We could asterisk games played against Mount Union, since those are almost always losses. We could asterisk games played early because of the NCAA’s bracketing habits.
But then it would be hard to read. When a conference compiles its standings, it doesn’t asterisk anything, does it?
Whatever the case the ASC W-L record will never improve as long as the NCAA continues their bios on the ASC and Texas teams. I think HSU could have went deep in the playoffs if the geographical formula’s were different or take the geographical deal out all together. Pull the money from the other top divisions and begin taking care of the smaller divisions.
Prediction= UMHB 42 W&J 14. Bank it!!!
Food for thought. Why not play the Stagg Bowl in a warmer climate, larger city, and central part of the country. I think the turnout would be much better. If played in a big city football lovers would show up just to watch the game even if they had no ties to the program.
I nominate the Rose Bowl to host the Stagg Bowl. A great warm-up for the Grandaddy of them all, and no so big as to garner a fight from the neighbors. I’d be happy to help in the process!
Live from Pasadena, CA where it is 85 degrees and sunny.
sabretooth
Make that “not so big.”
Salem, VA is the perfect host. Most of D3 is located east of the Mississippi and located in cold weather states. While a December game in Florida might be nice, I’m not sure how many fans it would draw from the participating schools when 90+% of the D3 towns would be too far away to drive?
^^^^^^What he said!
Keith,
You are one of the nicest contributors to this wonderful site. I enjoy greatly your valuable insight and writing (I really do – believe me). Without this site I would only know a limited amount about D3 football.
By wanting to know the complete conference records I am not trying to prove anything, I’m just curious. And honestly, I don’t know if the CCIW would have the second best all-time record. With the number of times Ithaca and Rowan have made it, thier conferences may have passed it up. I’m a numbers wonk, and am dying to get the big picture.
And of course, I am very proud of my Augustana Vikings and the entire CCIW, but I also enjoy following Central Iowa, the WIAC and other teams as well – most of which I would know very little about if it were not for d3football.com.
I know you must be very busy, and have a life outside this site, but your stock would rise even higher if you were to compile that data for the missing years. Not only would you be doing me a favor (and others as well), but you would be demonstrating to what lengths the contirbutors go, to bring the best product to visitors of this site.
Keep up the good work.
LABart- I agree. Certainly a disappointment but a step forward, not back. From what I gathered, we outplayed them. Missed 2 easy FGs and had a TD called back, only to lose by 2 points with 9 secs to go. Coulda, woulda shoulda tho. We lost. Give them credit, they did what they had to do. Go Profs! Also, I’m not sure if Union layed an egg or if Fisher is that good. Fisher’s only blemish, albeit a big one was that Springfield QB getting loose all day against them. Fisher could go far. How about RPI clobbering Cortland? LL has some very good football teams and nothing to be ashamed of. Rochester and St. Lawrence have improved vastly. Union, RPI and Hobart should continue to have tough teams in the forseeable future. It’s been a good year.
PurpleCrush,
Not to dis, but you’re harping on two old-news points here.
1. The Texas thing is the way it is. It’s not going to change unless the circumstances dictate it, i.e. enough teams get in to mandate separating them and/or so few get in, and their seeds are too far apart, like maybe a 1 and a 5, that they couldn’t bear to match them.
It just is how it is. Think if it as a second-round game played a round early.
It’s not right, but we’ve spent years whining about it and nothing changes. Save your energy … or at least complain to someone with some clout.
“Pull the money from the other top divisions and begin taking care of the smaller divisions.”
The flipside to that point is “Why doesn’t Division III take care of itself?”
You know no matter how much money there is, nobody’s trying to give any up.
2. “Host the Stagg Bowl in a warmer climate.”
Been done. It was in Bradenton, Fla. for years and then Phenix City, Ala.
Problem with that is it’s not near any D3 schools. No fan base nearby. And unless you can drive or the school organizes a charter, flying to the Stagg Bowl is a tough thing to do on less than a week’s notice.
Salem is a willing host that does a great job with the game for the size it is. I don’t think, outside of moving it to Collegeville or Alliance, you’d really guarantee a bigger crowd anywhere else.
I also think you’re wrong on the big city point. It seems to me small places where there’s nothing else in town garner more interest for D3. CUA gets lost in D.C., Hopkins does in Baltimore. I don’t remember huge crowds at Occidental (L.A.) or even this weekend in Pittsburgh (Carnegie Mellon). There’s lots to do, but the general populous is interested in the big pro or college teams.
D3 tends to draw people with ties to the school, except in small towns where the team is also a source of local pride and/or the thing to do in town.
From my experience, anyway …
SeanGOP,
That was pretty nice.
I’ll look it up after I finish ATN this week.
As far as Salem,
I’ve never heard anyone say it’s broken, so why fix it?
And as far as logical D3 places to move it, like Ohio, New York, N.J., Illinois, Minnesota or Wisconsin … well, none of those sound like much warmer climates than Salem, Va., even though Salem isn’t balmy and 70 degrees in December.
But few are the teams coming to the Stagg Bowl from warm climates, so this is the best replication of a regular game, except for the teams not used to grass.
The thing is, there’s a lot of behind-the-scenes work that goes into putting the game on, and Salem has the size, the proper venue and experience, and it does get treated like the big game in town when it’s there.
I think they contract the game on 2-year cycles, but I’ve never even heard rumblings of another place putting in for the Stagg Bowl.
Keith,
I believe Ithaca has a record seven Stagg Bowl appearances 74,75,79,80,85,88,91 and only Augustana and Mount have more Championships.
Sorry for the triple post on this:
The history of the game and its sites are here:
http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/
Not sure how believable the numbers that end in ’00 are, but I don’t think there are many discernable statistics trends. Looks like the Stagg Bowl has always generated a crowd of less than 10,000, and its somewhat tied to how close the teams are to the venue. (Salem is a day-trip from MUC, and it would be wise to keep it that way).
Also interesting to note the two games in Ohio, even though they were during the Augie years, didn’t draw all that well.
FWIW.