It’s hard to keep from pondering that if the NCAA had put UW-Whitewater in the North and Lakeland in the West (remember, Whitewater is closer geographically to the rest of the North bracket than Lakeland is!) then we could have seen UW-Whitewater/Mount Union today and UW-Whitewater/Linfield next week.
Thank goodness there was a competitive game today. Rowan did alright by the East in this one. Should be a good crowd in Salem. Looking forward to that one.
Congrats to Mount Union and UW-Whitewater. Fans, you should know that the Stagg Bowl organizing committee is sponsoring giveaway of a free hotel night and admission to the game. On Friday there’s a luncheon for the teams at the Salem Civic Center that you can purchase tickets to. You should find out which team is in which hotel if you are traveling so you can figure out whether you want to stay in the Clarion or the Wyndham (one team will stay in each, though there are many other hotels to choose from as well, check the Stagg Bowl Web site).
Pat Cummings, Keith McMillan and I will have a live audio broadcast of the game, with Gordon Mann and I handling pregame, halftime and postgame festivities. We start two hours before the game kicks off, and our pregame show will include the first announcement of the D3football.com All-America team. We’ll also carry it through the postgame news conferences and give you our final thoughts on the 2005 season, probably running at least an hour after the games end. So if you want to hear what your team and coaches have to say, tune to us.
We’ll also do photo galleries from the week, including the luncheon and team activities, as well as the game.
Enjoy the week. Post responsibly.
Good query re putting the Warhawks in the North . . . I just have to wonder how many of the west “also rans” could have won the East division. I think Linfield goes w/o saying . . . but it seems to me that St. Johns, Concordia and even Oxy may have had a shot as well. Thoughts?
Well, I try not to spend too much time pondering that, since it would never happen. The nature of Division III comes from the overall Division III philosophy emphasizing regional play. But swapping Whitewater into the North was feasible and consistent with the NCAA’s stated guidelines in the championships handbook. That’s why that one still bothers me.
I think you mean the South, where Wesley came from … Rowan represented the East well.
I had an inkling Whitewater was very good when I last saw them in about Week 5 … it wasn’t even their best game (two turnovers inside the 5) and they still looked really impressive. I would bet that Whitewater isn’t 52 points better than Wesley 9 times out of 10 … you know how games can get away from teams with turnovers … but it was definitely a ‘no doubts about it’ win.
Linfield should get strong consideration for No. 2 if UWW wins the Stagg Bowl, but I think MUC is no lower than 3 … and after that, there are probably various defensible top 10 configurations.
Mount Union coming into Salem as the underdog … probably so, but this is a very mysterious, if you will, Mount Union team. Are they getting better every week, or just a defensive juggernaut? Or both? Do we think the recent UWW-MUC games matter (they opened up with each other in, what, 02 and 03?)
And as a quick aside, anyone see the Division II championship?
I turned it on with :25 seconds left, NW Missouri St. down 21-17 to Grand Valley State, 2nd down from about the 25 … they take a shot into the back of the end zone, the guy gets his feet down but bobbles it as he catches it … third down is a throwaway, then on fourth, they complete a pass just short of the goal line, and GVSt. makes the tackle to hold on and win it … I did it perfectly, caught the only 25 seconds that mattered.
Headline on ESPN/AP right now, courtesy Pat:
“Kmic carries Rowan into D-III championship game
Associated Press
ALLIANCE, Ohio — Nate Kmic had 48 carries for 160 yards and Mount Union advanced to the NCAA Division III national championship game with a 19-7 win over Rowan on Saturday.”
Dare I say never send The Worldwide Leader to do The Best Source’s job?
Keith,
The world wide leader was all over the board today. They ran the MUC/Rowan ticker for a good part of the day as Mount Union-45 Rowan-7 and I think they had another off score with UWW vs. Wesley.
Pat did you piss someone off there during the playoff show? 🙂
I don’t want to diss Mount because they are the standard in DIII on a historical standard but it is a shame that the best two teams in this playoff field played in the West Region Finals when there was a chance to seperate them in two regions. I wish that everyone in DIII could have seen one of the all time great DIII games every played but that’s just not the case.
Boy, I like how everyone is already writting off Mount Union…… One underdog statement and forget about it….
Plus, haven’t you people complained about the Brackets enough… Come on people, we now at the Stagg Bowl… I read about it for weeks now.. New Conversation Anyone???
Also, I would take many bets that WW doesn’t hang 52 pts on Mount Union… or even 42 for that matter… Anyone agree??
Plus, the worldwide leader ran WW 81 -0 over Wesley for most of the day…
Well, for my part, I’m not writing off Mount Union. I’m just thinking that if UWW wins, there’s not much chance that it will be a better quality game than the Linfield game.
I would like to say that WW is a quality program and team. As a Linfiled alumni I have seen many teams come into Maxwell field and leave very unhappy. However, WW came and and played a great game nocking off the defending national champs. The fact is they didn’t put WW in the north and WW nocked off Linfield. Think of this. If WW wins next Saturday they will have beaten the last three national champs in this years playoffs. That is very impressive. Anyway, I think Linfield will have to rebuild a little next year but I still expect them to make the West regional final as they have for the last four consecutive years. Good luck to both WW and Mt. Union. You both have had great seasons and it is a shame that on of you will end the year with a loss.
Mike B,
I think that’s the point. Mount Union is probably better on defense than they are on offense this year, or at least not as talented on offense as the Borchart, Smeck, Adamson, etc. teams … being great on defense is generally the quickest way to get overlooked, but we can all finish this cliche:
Offense wins games …
I agree that Offense wins games… but I think it would there is always a better chance of winning if the opponent scores less than 3 times.. Without an offense to score… no wins…
Mt. Union’s defense is dominating though… the backs are questionable at times, however the front four are something special… I believe their stats overall this year rank right up there with the best in school history…
It known that a great defense can ease the pressure for the Offense…
I will be a very exciting game… GO RAIDERS!!!
BTW… Anyone know what time the tailgating is permitted… 2 hours before, 3 hours before…??? Thanks if anyone can help. Haven’t been there since the “L” to a great St. John’s team.
fb fan… I agree with everything you said 100%.
Hey Fellas,
Never posted before, but, have read many of the entries. And yes, there is a line of demarcation between the knowledgeable and ignorant posts…much like the bogus boundaries separating the regions. Anyhow, I’m not bitter 😉 But, who cares really? (besides anyone who lost to UW-W in the Super Sized West Region).
Just got back to The Chi from UW-W. Everyone thinks that Wesley wore the wrong shoes for the game, but, that game was just like playing hockey on the pond with no skates…the one who wins doesn’t have an advantage just a better broom.
Hey Pat, I met your brother the photographer at the game. Really nice guy, he was totally cool to us. I’m sure it runs in the family, just like mine. I was up there with my cousins, one of which was also the MVP of his D-III football team (Nic Hildreth LFC ’04). And while I’m at it, I want to give a super shout out to Tom Pattison and the incredible job he’s done with http://WWW.WARHAWKFOOTBALL.COM. You are seriously the man. You’ve kept all of us Warhawks in the know and I just want to say how appreciative we are.
But, to get to the heart of the matter. Warhawks, you guys are absolutely incredible. I have had a great feeling about this team since the preseason and you have never, not for a minute dissapointed us. You guys are the real deal and everybody knows it. I will be there in Salem and I look forward to meeting all of the D3Football.com guys, the family, the friends, and finally and most importantly my frickin’ guys…the Mighty Warhawks.
On the road to Victory,
Graham P. Bartholomae
1996 MVP
P.S. It’s still my favorite song.
Quote:
“It’s hard to keep from pondering that if the NCAA had put UW-Whitewater in the North and Lakeland in the West (remember, Whitewater is closer geographically to the rest of the North bracket than Lakeland is!) then we could have seen UW-Whitewater/Mount Union today and UW-Whitewater/Linfield next week”
Or, you could have seen UWW/MUC today and MUC/Linfield next week. I have a feeling that the Purple Raiders like coming into this weekend’s game as an underdog with nothing to lose. Kind of like the attitude back in 1993.
Don’t overlook Jorris, Garcon and Kmic. They may be young (I know Jorris is a JR, but he hasn’t gotten any real PT until this year) and not as well known as the Borcherts, Ballards, Bubonics, Moores, Pughs, and Marinos, but if you don’t pay attention to them, they will make you pay.
It will be interesting if Coach K allows Campbell and Candle continue with the O Play calling if the game stays tight or MUC gets behind. Should be an excellent game.
Everyone, know this!
Saturday is going to be fun. Will WW prove they are the sh**? Will Mt. Union do it AGAIN? I wouldn’t bet against them, to be honest.
Where is SeanGOP?
Its really weird to even say Mount Union is the underdog…..but I know they are. If I had to guess a line like 3-4 points. I don’t know whether they have the fire power to stay with WW offensively. I think that their DEFENSE will have to keep them in this game. Weather conditions could play a major role in this game as well. I know there are many out there who believe that the two best teams are Linfield and WW. Who knows…you may be right…..but Mount has done everything they could do to get back to the Stagg Bowl. I hope that they give them a game…..wow, the first time in how long……Mount Union and underdog used in the same sentence…..WEIRD !! Go Raiders !!!!!!!
Is anyone from the EAST side of Cleveland having a party/get together for the game at an establishment/bar? I think a couple of years ago they had a party at the Willoughby Brewery.
Any more opinions? Where is everyone?
Is everyone SLEEPING????
We haven’t heard from seanGOP cause he’s ticked off that Mount is going to the Stagg Bowl for a RECORD 9th time…..count umm Shawn, 9 times. I hope that they can bring home their 8th National Championship trophy.
GOOOOOOO RAIDERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
UWW has to be the favorite, but the one thing I keep thinking of is the advantage the MUC coaches and some of the players are going to have playing in Salem, VA again. Some of these players played or at least suited up for this game a couple of years ago and the coaches must have the travel arrangements, atmosphere preparation, media attention, etc. down to a science by now. Although there is no way to quantify how big of a deal dealing with all the hype and arrangements of the Stagg Bowl, MUC obviously has the edge in this department, as the UWW players and coaches have never experienced this. I still think UWW is the team to beat in this one, however.
That’s a great point D3forme…..but when you get hit the first time on the field, you forget about it being your first time. It should be a great game. If Mount can’t compete…..the bracket stuff will be brought up over and over, and over etc…..I think they will compete and it will be a close game within 7 points….you just NEVER know…..again, when was the last time Mount Union was the UNDERDOG in a game….8, 10, 12 years ago. I don’t know, you guys tell me. Go RAIDERS !!!!!
You are right though…..the media, preparation, travel arrangements, atmosphere…..that will no doubt be an advantage for Mount and their coaches. The question is….will it be enough of an edge….I guess that’s why we play the game….we’ll see Saturday. GO Raiders !!!!
Where are all of the WW fans?…..probably still partying. I don’t blame them….Whitewater has had a GREAT year…..but there’s still ONE game left.
Kirasdad, guess you didn’t read my comment, posted an hour and a half before your response.
Hey pcole,
Just wanted to know your thoughts on a possible playoff scenario for next season:
If UW-Whitewater wins next weekend and Whitewater, Linfield, & Mount Union all go undefeated in 2006….What are the chances they move Whitewater to the North, and Mount Union to the East next year?
This could potentially set up a Linfield vs. Mount Union semifinal to determine who gets a rematch with Whitewater in the Stagg.
Do you think the committee would be wise enough to do so? Or are we more likely to see UWW vs. Linfield regional final in Wisconsin?
Back from the WW game and bars. Finally get to warm up a little bit. For those of you who couldnt make it out, you missed an amazing show. Swarming D forcing turnovers, and an offense unphased by weather. For those who said Wesley’s D-Line was going to test the WW O-Line, you were way off. Every play, the WW O-Line had them pushed 5-6 yards down field. Justin Jacobs (WW QB) was one of the few players who had no mud/dirt or anything for that matter on his jersey or pants. I see a lot of MUC fans are here. Good for for those guys. I do hope to see an amazing game next week. I can promise you, the WW-MUC matchups from a couple years ago mean absolutely nothing. We had no passing or defense back then. This Whitewater team is the complete package. Great D, as well as an amazing offense that is an absolute joy to watch. And just by talking with a lot of the people at the game today, we will have a strong fan base at the game next week. GO WARHAWKS!
Bigmucfan – Yes, there will be a party (of one) watching the big game at a bar east of Cleveland. Feel free to join me at Sullivan’s, on Rt. 198, in Laurel, MD, at, say, 12:00 or so.
Drinks on me.
50N05:
You will want to root for a blowout Stagg Bowl next weekend if you want to prevent that kind of thing from happening in the future. All I can think of at this point is that we might get some salvation if ESPN is upset by a non-competitive game.
MU/Rowan – Defense, Defense, Defense. All the talk about the Rowan defense over the last several weeks – kind of forgot about MU’s studs. Well, Rowan held MU to 322 yds. Nice effort here, but a bit short. East has nothing to be ashamed of. Much said about MU’s KMIC, (48 carries – 160 yds – 3.3 ypc – thanks for the SamBamCunningham effort. You better get 160 with 48 touches!). Kudos to MU defense. Raiders showed they’re more “D” than “O” in this one. Nice coaching effort. Just gets it done. What a program. You guys are the bomb. Good luck next week.
Wesley – and all your fans. Trash talk all week. Real excited about your 3-game playoff run. Weary about the 47-bagel drubbing at Brockport. Wrong shoes – ok, you get one buddy pass. But 58-6? Are you kidding me? How could you wear those shoes again? Final four pasting at its worst. We’re happy to call you a “South” team after this one. Past peformance clearly not indicative of this drubbing. Please, no sissy sportsmanship commentary about the foregoing. Score speaks for itself.
UWW – good luck next week. It’ll be hard to tell the two teams apart (same colors). Look forward to a competitive game. UWW – don’t expect a similar absence from MU. Linfield all over again – with history on MU’s side. Shaping up to be one of the better Stagg Bowls in recent memory.
Again – no sissy sportsmanship replies are welcome. Bitterness from an easterner is, of course, encourged.
Fun day in Alliance. Much better game than my last trip there when the Purple Raiders obliterated JCU in the National Semis.
Rowan did the maligned East region proud, considering they were without three key players. The Profs bring back a lot next year, including most of a stellar defensive front. Tosh and Garren are scary good.
Other random observations since a whole lot has already been said already…
Back at you: I pulled into Mount Union Stadium’s parking lot and had this brief conversation with the student handling parking.
Him: Virginia, huh? (says the license plate on the rental car).
Me: Mm (non-commital since it’s not worth explaining). I’m here with D3football.com.
Him: Again? You guys are here every week.
Me (Thinking to myself): That’s because you keep winning. 🙂
I am a Real American: Mount Union gets my nod for best pregame warm-up song. They use Real American, Hulk Hogan’s ring entry music during the 1980s. Classic!
My nod for weirdest intro music still goes to the Southern Maine women’s basketball who used a mix tape (or CD or MP3 or whatever) that went from Axel Rose to Winnie the Pooh in less than 90 seconds. Seriously.
Signs that you need a rest stop: Pennsylvania is a looong state to drive across. Around Altoona (or was it Allegheny County?) my eyes started to meander into the top of my head.
“Oooh…look at the pretty lights on that tractor trailer in front of me. Pretty lights…pre-tty lights…pre-tty..zzzz”
I woke up just before drifting off (to sleep and the road). Then I jammed my body so full of sugar, I was bouncing off the roof of my rental car the rest of the way home.
So now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to run a marathon and then pass out once all the saccharine works its way through my system…
linfield lost…get over it
is there anyone who thinks that muc will give whitewater a run?
last time i checked muc usually did pretty well in these things you all call the “stagg bowl”
but then again i’ve only been there to witness them win it 3 times…maybe that’s not enough to give them a chance on sat
Pat
“Kirasdad, guess you didn’t read my comment, posted an hour and a half before your response.”
Hmm. My posts were at 10:53pm and 10:58pm. 1.5 hours prior to that would be 9:23pm and 9:28pm. Don’t see any comments from you at those times.
Ah, just found it. Sorry I missed it last night. I was babysitting my 4 year old daughter and her two friends so the Women could go do Christmas shopping. I still think (hope may be better) that this MUC team will show up and give UWW a game of it.
So what does happen if the one loss MUC wins in a rout next Saturday. Do we move UWW to the South next year so we don’t have the “Real Championship” in the West Finals?
I kind of like being the cocky underdog. Let me fire off some of the comments I have heard over the years:
“You haven’t seen a D like ours this year, it is time for the King to lose his crown”.
“Watch out WW, here comes the new champt”
etc… 🙂
Damn, I wish we could edit our comments here like in Post Patterns. I will have to do a better job proofreading form now on.
Your’re killing me kirasdad……you’re killing me….keep up the talk…I’m enjoying your BLOG’s…..
I couldn’t agree more….get over the bracket scenerio…your teams lost..quit making excuses (wrong shoes etc…). Its Mount & WW (cheese country) and we’ll be underway Saturday. Can’t wait til gametime. I guess all of Wisconsin will be pulling for WW since the Lovable Packers are 2-12. Good luck !!
1) Whitewater isnt cheese country. (very southern part of the state) 2) the Packers are 2-10, and a lot of people dont care, because they are bears fans. 3) Whitewater is better then MUC
Well, my trip to Whitewater was much more eventful than my trip back. A minor delay at O’Hare and was home by 1:10am ET. Now, interestingly enough, I write this from the USAirways Club in Philadelphia, back at the airport, waiting for a flight to Pittsburgh for my “real job.”
I can say I am probably one of a VERY few people who has seen both Mount Union and Whitewater this season. The OAC officials who called the WW/Wesley game join me in that category. But I have seen both of them in the playoffs…so bully for me.
I am struggling in my head about how to predict this game. The last two years have seen one team demolish it’s opponent in the semifinals. Linfield obliterated Rowan and played a close game with UMHB. Mount Union euthanized Bridgewater, 66-0, and scored 6 points in the big one, en route to a loss to St. John’s.
Neither of these teams, in my opinion, can match the level of the Mount Union teams that won the Stagg Bowl, or the Linfield/St. John’s units from 2003 and 2004. Again, this is coming from someone who has seen both play, two weeks apart, in the playoffs.
Mount is a better team since Nate Kmic has emerged as the main rushing threat. I was there for his breakout game and he ran for a Mount Union single game record of over 360 yards. Think about all the great Mount RBs over the years and this frosh came in and pierced Augustana’s run defense that was allowing 122 rushing yards per game. Kmic is a straight-forward threat who has accomplished more in the postseason that first-team OAC running back Aaron Robinson did in the regular season. That’s saying something.
Whitewater certainly has had a special run through the postseason. Don’t think that Wesley didn’t help the Warhawks cause with a putrid offensive gameplan going into Saturday’s game. There was no energy from the Wolverines all afternoon, not to mention some horrific mistakes early on when Wesley looked like they didn’t care if they picked up the football or not. Wesley slipped all over the place on the Perkins Stadium field while Whitewater looked like they were born on it.
Just as Bridgewater was completely outmatched versus Mount Union two years ago, so too looked the Wolverines. So much so, it’s hard to analyze the Warhawks based on that game. This much is clear…
This is a stat-sheet football game. Both offenses run straight at you and can be effective at passing ranges anywhere on the field. Beaver and Kmic will get their yards, Jorris will surely find Garcon and Casto while Jacobs will get his passes to Jim L and Stanley…this WILL happen. But who will it happen to more often – defense will win Stagg Bowl 33 in a close affair that I believe will come down to the last possessions of the fourth quarter.
As for a specific prediction…stayed tuned throughout the week.
Thanks Pat Cummings.
I was hoping to hear something from someone who had seen both teams play this year. I was thinking that the game may come down to MTU Defense vs. UWW Offense, especially with the two MTU CBs ailing. But, with all the depth that MTU usually has, I wouldn’t be surprised if the next one in line steps up and fills in admirably.
As a player on MUC’s ’93 team I can tell you that every game we’ve played since the early “90’s has been our opponents biggest game of the year….EVERY GAME…everyone wants to knock us off. Kehres and company underestimate no one during the reagular season (kudos ONU), and anyone who know’s anything…wants no part of Mount in the playoffs (Dayton”92, St. Johns and Rowan ’93, where we were undersized, slower….and hungrier. Since then, the talent pool has deepened, we’re bigger and faster within position depth charts…and have won more games than any team in all of college football. That’s what makes MUC so good….we work harded and we want it more AS A TEAM. If MUC is hungry and playing as a team, LK earns another ring. But we saw an arrogant MUC team a couple years ago in Salem, that got embarrased and beat up. This Stagg Bowl should be a good one.
This year’s Stagg Bowl looks like a headline grabber. If the game is evenly matched, it will probably come down to control of the line of scrimmage, turnovers and special teams play.
While Mount Unions defense is as good statistically as any in Division III, Whitewater’s isn’t too shabby either. It has taken a backseat to the Warhawks explosive offense all year long.
One statistic to ponder… Whitewater has forced 20 turnovers in its 4 playoff games and are plus-15 on their playoff run.
The Warhawks have recorded three interceptiions for TDs, a fumble recovery for a TD, and recorded a safety on the Wesley game’s first offensive play.
I don’t think it would be wise to overlook WW’s defense.
I don’t follow Rowan but I looked at their individual stats and their best runner (Encarnacion) was not on the field against Mount Union. I presume he was injured. I’m sure this hurt Rowan’s chances against MU. Not a follower of Whitewater but watched one of their games. Beaver (running back) and their QB have to be one of the best combos ever in D III.
Injured as in in a wheelchair, multiple fractures in his leg suffered against Union.
Don’t think our ‘Hawks are going to come into this without the drive they’ve had all season. Being in the band, I’m at every home game, and we even made a trip up to UW-Stout to cheer our hawks onto one of their many victories this year.
They are looking to match what many of our other athletic programs have done this calendar year. Our Wheelchair Basketball team, Baseball team, and Women’s Volleyball team have all won National Championships. The football team is looking to make this unexcusably the best year in Warhawk Athletics. And, if any of the Wesley fans that were at the game read this… grow up. We came to your side of the field doing a traditional run that my fraternity has done for many years at home football games. It was our 40th anniversary yesterday, and we weren’t going to miss the opportunity to do that run one more time this season.
See you in Virginia MUC, may the best team win, and can we see some good football? I’m a football fan before anything else, and I appreciate a good game.
Well,
I guess I have to clarify. I think the general public will assume UWW is the favorite because of who they have beaten and the scores they’ve put up. However, I am undecided on a favorite because I think great defense can neutralize great offense. If either team is favored, I wouldn’t go more than 3 points.
Honestly, how can Mount Union be a big underdog against anyone? Maybe a I-AA team … So this kind of stuff, I think, is a bit of a stretch:
“I have a feeling that the Purple Raiders like coming into this weekend’s game as an underdog with nothing to lose. Kind of like the attitude back in 1993.” (and I don’t mean to pick on kirasdad, a regular poster, so hopefully he’s a good sport)
It may remind you of 1993, it’s not my place to doubt that since I was not even a D3 player then, much less a writer, but I don’t think Mount Union or its fans come in thinking they’re the underdog, and I don’t think UWW thinks that way either … each team has done enough this season to go in believing … I have to see the tape of the UWW-Linfield game, and perhaps MUC-Capital 2 or MUC-Rowan to really get a feel for how each is clicking right now. (E-mail me at Keith@D3football.com if you can help me out on getting a tape from MUC) …
Bottom line though, what I was trying to say is, I think the general consensus will have UWW coming in as the favorite because many don’t acknowledge the affect a suffocating front 7 can have on an offense … and that appears to be Mount Union’s strength (although that doesn’t make their other parts weak)
(wrote this hours ago and forgot to click submit)
Have to laugh. That is the first time I saw a Band Member post on Post Patterns or Daily Dose defending their team. 🙂
I thought they were just there trying to pick up girls (“one time at band camp”) or keep their instruments from freezing to their lips, not actually watching the game.
Just kidding, please don’t flood me with “not all band members are like that” blogs. 🙂
Alfred University has had a band member posting on the message board in their defense all year.
I wonder if he plays the “Saxon-phone.” Ha! Get it?
Uh, yeah. Nevermind.
No harm done here Kieth. I was a senior in 93, but no longer playing (that is another story, too long to tell here) and I guess I got the feeling that we were the underdogs because it was our first trip there and we were playing those “D1 Transfers from Rowan” (no offense JT).
We had lost to Allegheny in 90 in the first round, then lost to UW-LAX in 92 in the semis, so we finally made it to the show and I think they felt like they had something to prove.
I don’t really think the players are coming in thining that they are the underdogs. I just like the fact that we did lose a regular season game this year and this team still has a chance to win it all. I am sure it is a nice change for them to “sort of” feel like the underdogs. Takes some of the pressure of all the “streaks” off of them.
Man, I switched adverbs enough in that post didn’t I?
We, they, us, them.