Geography, philosophy, competitiveness, rivalry.
All of these factor in to how a school selects its conference affiliation and how conferences select members. And with movement starting back up in the past six months and more rumbling barely beneath the surface, it’s worth some rumination of the ramifications.
I’m sure any moment now, Post Patterns hall of famer Ralph Turner will comment with his thoughts about automatic bids spurring conference consolidation and predicting doom and gloom for Pool B in, say, 2013. But I’ll leave that to him. He can copy and paste it, I’m sure. 🙂
Let’s instead just take a look at where teams could go. This latest round of shuffling is still part of the aftershocks of the breakup of the Freedom Football Conference. After the 2003 season, the teams spread to the four winds, with teams heading to the NJAC, UCAA, E8 and Plymouth State left as an independent. The UCAA took on Worcester Polytech, Kings Point and Coast Guard and changed its name to the Liberty League. Then Coast Guard took its liberty of the organization after a year, announcing that after its second year it was heading to the New England Football Conference.
While the Liberty League maintains enough members to keep its automatic bid, it could use an eighth member as a buffer against losing it, which is where the Susquehanna rumors come in. Juniata and Moravian are talked about as heading to the Centennial, which is something that league has been looking at for a while in the name of ease of scheduling. Bringing the conference to nine teams would leave midseason open dates or non-conference games, but would require each school to schedule just one non-conference game, whereas the remaining eight MAC schools could schedule a full round-robin without fear of having the title decided on a tiebreaker.
So what’s next? If the Centennial wants to have 10 football programs, it could look to Catholic, which is within the general geography of the conference (40 minutes from Johns Hopkins and McDaniel, two hours from Gettysburg, slightly further from Dickinson and Franklin and Marshall). Catholic could also go to the MAC, which was a possibility back in the mid-90s when Upsala folded. Allentown (now called DeSales) eventually took the open spot. Juniata and Susquehanna’s departure would presumably open up spots in the MAC’s Commonwealth League (the MAC is split in some sports and unified in others, essentially scamming Division III out of as many automatic bids as possible). The Commonwealth is slightly better travelwise.
Washington and Lee has made little secret of desiring to compete in the Centennial. It sees itself academically as a peer of those schools and already competes in the league for wrestling. But it’s a long trip from W&L to anywhere in the league.
Elsewhere, Buffalo State is in its last year in the ACFC before moving to the NJAC. SUNY-Morrisville, which is a two-year school currently but going to four-year status, is said to be looking at the NJAC and would be a fit philosophically.
That’s the sticking point, usually, that word “philosophically.” In most parts of the country there are overlapping conferences geographically — in the Mid-Atlantic it’s the MAC and Centennial, in New York it’s the Empire 8 and Liberty League, in Ohio it’s the OAC and NCAC, etc. This is almost always because schools that think highly of themselves academically want to associate with other such schools, in hopes of what they think is leveling the playing field. (How level some of those fields are is a subject for the offseason.) So when people say, “why can’t we have one Upstate New York superleague?” and similarly in Ohio and such, that’s the reason. It’s just not going to happen. Heck, in Ohio it used to be that way, with Wittenberg and others in the OAC before breaking off and forming the NCAC. (Similarly with Centennial schools seceding from the MAC.)
But the bottom line remains — the Liberty League is a very insecure group, in terms of the automatic bid. There are just five full Liberty League members which play football, and that includes Rochester, which is evenly split between the Liberty League and University Athletic Association. Hamilton is in the league but plays football in the NESCAC. Kings Point and Worcester Polytech belong to the Skyline and NEWMAC in other sports. And the likelihood of Clarkson, Skidmore or Vassar adding football seems remote. The league needs two associate members for football to maintain an automatic bid unless Susquehanna can fill one of them.
And that’s just one part of the country. There are changes in the works elsewhere as well, with Rose-Hulman pulling out of the SCAC and returning to the Heartland. The SCAC is also safe at eight teams for now and for 2006, but is looking for more football programs. The ASC has nine football programs still after Austin’s departure for the SCAC. The Presidents might be done with their rapid expansion from five to eight (Thomas More, St. Vincent, Geneva), although Seton Hill is still sitting on the NAIA/D-III fence and doesn’t have to declare until next August or so.
With a proposal on the table to facilitate changes in conference membership without losing automatic bids, expect more movement to take place in future years.
Now we throw the floor open.
Per the likely defections from the MAC: good or bad, in your opinion?
Good Morning! There is nothing better than some intellectual discussion to start to the day!!!
Question #2. Re: the MAC Commonwealth.
Are Juniata, Moravian and/or Susquehanna rumored to be leaving in all sports? That would leave the MAC Commonwealth with only 5 members. Whom would they ask to join? Who would petition to join? (Those are 2 different questons….You know, it’s a Mission/Vision thing).
Queston #3. Re: Catholic. Were the Centennial to invite Catholic, would it be as a football affiliate only? That would remove the ODAC to the vagaries of Football Pool B. Are any ODAC members considering adding football? Who might be invited?
This discussion highlights the importance of the 2-year waiting period imposed by the NCAA. Thanks to all respondants.
The SCAC has seven FB schools, not eight – one reason they seek additional members.
I think Catholic could move into the Centennial as either a football only member or in all sports. Catholic would be the southern most Centennial school, but they already play some of these schools in other sports. I can’t see Catholic moving to any other conference but the Centennial. If the Centennial opened a spot, would Salisbury want to join for an automatic qualifier? And would the Centennial want Salisbury with its built in advantage of being a state school? W&L is a good geographic fit with the ODAC, and while they might consider themselves a better match academically with Hopkins or F&M, rather than Emory and Henry and Bridgewater, it seems that it would be way too much travel for them to justify playing Centennial schools in any sport other than football.
If W&L or Catholic did leave the ODAC, the conference could try to pick up Shenandoah as a 7th member. Shenandoah is a great geographic match and already plays Catholic, Bridgewater, and Randolph Macon from the ODAC. Shenandoah would already make more sense as an ODAC school than Catholic or Guilford do.
Ralph:
From what I understand, Susquehanna is going to the Liberty League for all sports, Juniata and Moravian for football only (at least initially). I’ve also heard — but cannot verify — that some MAC presidents would like to see the Centennial Conference “entice” the non-football MAC venues to defect.
However, there’s been no public announcement about any of this. Officially, at least, nothing is yet carved in stone.
Thus, as the bloggers might put it … DEVELOPING.
There are now 14 schools in the ODAC with seven playing football (Catholic is the only one-sport member – football). Of the seven non-football playing schools, three (Hollins, Sweet Briar and Randolph-Macon Women’s College) are female only. That leaves Eastern Mennonite, Lynchburg, Roanoke and Virginia Wesleyan, but I don’t think EMU wants football for philosophical and religious reasons. So, Roanoke, Lynchburg and VWC, any plans for football? If memory serves me correctly, Roanoke has played football at some point in their history. I know VWC never has, but I’m not sure about Lynchburg. Two final thoughts in this region: 1) Davidson is in football no man’s land trying to play in North Carolina as a 1AA non-scholarship program and 2) the ODAC does see itself as a step above the USAC academically, so don’t expect all schools to be crossover candidates.
WT, Only Messiah and E’town do not play football in the MAC Commonwealth, but the MAC Commonwealth is conference “losing” 3 of its football playing members.
Can you foresee the MAC using its 2-year study period to study, and then re-align, into 8 football playing schools in one conference, e.g., the Freedom, and “enticing” DeSales, Drew and Scranton to re-align to a non-football playing conference,. e.g. the Commonwealth? (Please consider all sports, including Lacrosse, Field Hockey, baseball, etc. in your response!)
Thanks, BFB — I lost my way in all the numbers last night.
I think realignment out of the MAC is good in football, Warren. Not sure about other sports. Determining an undisputable champion is a good thing. I remember schools such as FDU-then-Madison were disappointed at having to drop some opponents when the MAC schedule expanded from seven to nine games in 1999.
Ralph, I think Catholic would welcome moving out of the CAC in non-football sports. I know the administration at the time was seriously considering taking the MAC Freedom spot offered but couldn’t make it work travelwise. They also said if a MAC Commonwealth position had been opened, they would have accepted.
hasanova – not quite sure what the reference to Davidson’s football program meant, but they play at the I-AA non-scholarship level because they have to. The NCAA mandates this because the remainder (or at least the majority) of the school’s athletics programs compete at the Division I level so the football program must as well. I am sure there are quite a few of the I-AA mid-major (non-scholarship) programs that would prefer to play football at the D3 level but can’t.
Why wouldn’t Wahington and Lee become the 8th member of the Empire 8. They just joined as a satellite Field Hockey Member in that conference. Academically and philosophically it might be a decent fit.
What is going to happen with Brockport State? Will they eventually be NJAC bound?
How great would the upstate NY football be if they had a superconference (give or take a school or two):
Ithaca
St. John Fisher
Brockport State
Cortland State
RPI
Union
Hobart
Alfred
Buffalo State
I stand corrected…..it was actually Washington and jefferson that joined the Empire 8 as a field hockey affiliate.
acorrill – thanks for the extra information. I didn’t know Davidson, et al were forced to compete at 1AA in football, but I did know they play primarily DI in all other sports. Davidson’s football schedule is full of DIII competition and that’s what fits their travel options best, so it’s a shame they can’t join the ODAC.
Yeah, I mean somebody feel free to correct me if I’m wrong on any of that info, but I believe that to be correct. It won’t get any easier for Davidson’s scheduling efforts next season when Austin Peay goes scholarship, thus leaving only 21 programs at that mid-major level. It is a shame, because I believe it would also be cool to see Dayton again at the D3 level (just out of a curiosity to see how they’d stack up against the other Ohio teams).
I admit it may make sense for Catholic to join the Centennial, but someone will always be the most geographically inaccessible team. So, whether they are the northernmost team in the ODAC or the southernmost team in the Centennial, someone has the longest trip. Fortunately, in football, that’s only 5 road trips a year and only once every two years to the most distant locations.
Geography makes it tough for a lot of schools. There are only four DIII football progams in NC, for example, and I know of none in SC and only two in the eastern half of Tennessee, so the only option is to look north to Virginia.
Guilford, for example, might be better off in terms of travel to be in the USAC (and remember, the other NC-based DIII members did not have football when Guilford joined the ODAC), but they see themselves more closely aligned academically & philosophically with most of the ODAC schools. By the way, if I remember correctly, new USAC member Maryville (TN) was once a member of the ODAC, so this tide is constantly changing.
What do you guys think about having NAIA DII independent Southern Oregon, and NCAA DII Western Oregon joining the NWC? With the addition of Menlo, and rumors of Pacific coming back, the NWC would be an even stronger conference than it is now. Think about it:
Linfield
Pacific Lutheran
Whitworth
Puget Sound
Willamette
Lewis & Clark
Menlo
Pacific
Southern Oregon
Western Oregon
Any takers?
It sounds like a fun league but I think we would be back to the philosophical debate. I don’t believe the NWC schools want state schools in the league, frankly.
Ralph:
I have no answer to your question, but I’ll ask around (employing such “contacts” as I might possess ;))
Oops – PAC has grown to nine, not eight, Thomas More made 7.
The conference that always puzzles me is UAA – for schools with strong academic reputations the incredible travel distances have never made sense to me. While I know the UAA makes more sense when you look beyond football, it seems that dropping football from the conference and letting schools join other more geographically reasonable conferences for football makes sense. Of course, most conferences don’t want “just” a football participant.
OldPhart
If you are interested, there is discussion of the NCAC-UAA football scheduling agreement in the General DIII board under Future of DIII. There I propose a joinder for football then splitting into 2 football conferences of 7 each, and hence an AQ for each. UAA travel at 4 FB teams involves only 1 trip each year across the conference, although CWRU and CMU are closer to each other than UChi and WUStL are. Hoops has a double round robin with all 8 teams with the men’s and women’s teams travelling together and utilizing travel partners for Fri/Sun games. Only soccer has a round robin amoung remaining sports. The other competition is on a tournament or one conference meet basis.
Well, the UAA may make sense for them due to their philosophical & academic bond and their HUGE endowments which can fund this sort of travel. I am relying on information from friends & family more closely affiliated with the UAA members, but these schools actually use these long distance out-of town trips as a recruitng tool. For football, I believe they come in a day or so early and take the players on tours of the city and what it has to offer (museums, cultural, events, etc.) My nephew was recruited for basketball at the University of Chicago and Emory University and both pushed the idea of travel as a perk. The thought of flying to Boston, Atlanta, New York, St. Louis and other more enticing venues can be much more appealing than 6 hour bus rides through the hinterlands to Podunk, USA.
We saw what Dayton could do with the Ohio schools when they beat Wittenberg earlier this year. I think they’d be competitive, but no real match for Cap, B-W, or Mount on a yearly basis.
I’d also like to see the UAA stay independent and consisting of the same types of schools it has. As good academically as the NCAC schools are, they aren’t really in the same league as the UAA schools.
My 2 cents worth: As for current ODAC schools adding football I would say not likely anytime soon for Lynchburg and Roanoke. VWC would be the most likely possibility but that is strictly my gut feeling. While W&L is a notch higher on the academic totem pole from other ODAC teams I think they are a good fit. While they haven’t exactly racked up a trophy case full of ODAC championships (except tennis) they have held their own quite well considering they can’t get student athletes in their that will get in to other ODAC schools. This is no slam to the others but rather a praise of W&L. Unless things have changed recently there are no slouches academically in the ODAC.
As for one school always being on the edge and having to travel I can relate. As an ODAC member in the mid 80’s at Maryville the travel was brutal. Unless MC joins the NAIA or DII (not likely) they will always have this problem.
Speaking of W&L: Huge win for their program over H-SC last week. Another biggie against Bridgewater this week. Would love to see the Generals knock off the Eagles but don’t see it happening. I’d be happy to come back Sat. evening and eat some crow if I’m wrong.
allsky7 – actually W&L travels to Guilford this weekend (22nd) before they face Bridgewater next week (29th). Personally, I would love to see W&L beat BC, but I hope the Quakers trip W&L first. I think everyone in the ODAC (except the Eagles, of course lol) is pretty tired of BC’s run in football and to be honest, it’s not healthy for the ODAC. (Guilford has no defense, but they put up big passing numbers and points -45 & 46 – vs HSC & BC). Go Quakers!
I think everyone in the ODAC concedes W&L’s top academic position in the league, but they all take their academic standing very seriously. That’s one reason why there would be a bit of resistance to crossover with some, but not all, of the USAC schools. Maryville is in a tough position as far as travel is concerned, but I would have liked to have seen them in the ODAC again. W&L would also be in a tough spot if they dropped out out of the ODAC and went to the Centennial – their travel time & expense would jump a lot. But W&L might be able to afford it with their $450 miliion or so endowment. Most of the ODAC schools field 8-12 sports for each gender, so it’s not just football at stake.
Guilford got caught in no man’s land back in the early 80’s when all the old Carolina’s Conference football teams (Elon, Catawba, Mars Hill, Lenoir-Rhyne, Newberyy, Presbyterian, et al) decided to switch from NAIA to NCAA DII and the Quakers couldn’t – or wouldn’t – make the jump. Guilford tried to be a small college independent for about 7-8 years, but that only works if you’re Notre Dame. lol In the land of small college sports, in my opinion, finding a suitable conference affiliation is a must.
hasanova- Thanks for the correction on my schedule error. It would be a big mistake on W&L’s part to overlook Guilford. Even if Guilford beats W&L I think the ODAC title would still come down to BC and W&L (assuming no other conf. losses) because if W&L knocks off BC (both would have 1 ODAC loss) W&L would get the automatic due to head to head comptetition. Not positive the ODAC breaks ties that way but it would seem the most logical/fair way to do it. Should be fun to watch the last few weeks of the season.
allsky7 – yw. I looked up W&L & BC’s schedules: W&L is @ Guilford, BC, @E&H, Case Western Reserve (nonconference). BC is @E&H, @W&L, RMC & Catholic. With no disrepect meant to any of their ODAC opponents, I expect BC to beat E&H, RMC and Catholic (the Wasps & the Yellowjackets are down this year & CUA is rebuilding from last year’s 0-10 season with freshman QB Keith Ricca). I expect W&L to beat E&H, but I see Guilford as a potential stumbling block (& I don’t just say that because I’m an alumnus). The Quakers have put up 127 points in their last 3 games vs. HSC, Greensboro & BC. Granted, their defense is porous, but I’ve seen some promising signs & they are never out of games with their potent passing attack. QB Josh Vogelbach has thrown for 15 TD’s, five 2-point conversions & rushed for one TD in the past 3 games.
OK, even if W&L loses to Guilford & beats BC, I think the ODAC would declare them champs (this is how it’s been done in the past). They would both be 5-1 in the conference, but W&L would have won the head-to-head matchup. I’m not sure, however, how the NCAA sees it as far as awarding a postseason berth. One interesting thing to consider is BC will only have a 9 game official season this year & they already lost to McDaniel. W&L has a 10 game season & only lost so far to Centre. Personally, I’d like to see W&L win the ODAC AFTER they lose to Guilford, of course. lol