Some schools hold dual membership in the NCAA and NAIA, and some declare themselves ineligible for the NCAA Tournament in order to participate in a smaller association’s postseason.
But that would all have been decided long ago. There is no reason why we should be finding out three days before Selection Sunday that we’re going to be shorted one Pool C bid, as the men drop from 19 to 18. Pool B gets one added, from three to four.
The mysterious ruling that Carthage and Hope are somehow 199 miles apart this year — that I can accept, though I know and understand why others can’t. But to make a math error in this crucial an area, I cannot accept.
The credibility of the NCAA takes another big hit here.
I have to agree, I am very disappointed in this. I’m actually a little bit to miffed to even post about it coherently.
How are we to trust the selection process now?
Wow, even for the NCAA this sort of mistake this late in the game is amazing. I would describe the NCAA as the most incompetent group of individuals outside of the WorldCom and Enron boards but I don’t think that would be fair to Enron! (I also have some pent up hostility over the Carthage-Hope issue and the Chief Illiniwek issue so I am letting this all out here).
But seriously, to make this large of a change 3 days before Selection Sunday is not fair to any of the schools at the D3 level. Of course a Pool B team that would have been left home now will be dancing and that might be the correct legal ruling based on the calculations. However, realizing this mistake this late into the season just speaks of complete mismanagement and laziness on the part of everyone at the NCAA. A large number of Pool C teams are now left scrambling just days before selections and that is not fair or just.
I expect that before the week is out the NCAA will announce that some D1 coach committed some awful sin and helped one of his players by buying him dinner at a non-sanctioned meeting. Of course the school and coach will be placed on probation. I trust Myles Brand will have no problem collecting his BILLIONS in tv contracts though for that players efforts and play all year and in the NCAAs.
The NCAA, where Hypocrites come to take advantage of America’s youth and get a big paycheck for themselves.
Arithmetic is not that tricky a subject, even for Hoosiers. The fact that they can make such a simple, fundamental error, and then not catch it until the last moment, suggests that nobody in Indianapolis really cares about our little (big) division.
We all took the 37/3/19 breakdown more or less on faith, but now our motto has to be Question Everything. First question: have they screwed up the women’s bracket (39/4/20) too? Second question: can they be trusted to calculate QoWI correctly? (Probably not, as the Carthage/Hope Ferry Fiasco suggests.)
Although it would be sort of underhanded, I think the front page poll idea that the committee just not tell anyone and pick a Pool B team instead would have been the best PR option for the NCAA.
Other questions to ask the NCAA:
When calculating regional rankings, do you understand that 1 is better than 5 and 2 better than 3?
When not just have a 64 team tourney? D1 does it that way and there are fewer D1 teams than D3 teams so the calculation of so many schools in the tourney per schools total clearly is not law.
The funny thing is, this may not matter in the final selection.
Westminster PA is the likely 4th Pool B team, especially if they win their conference tournament.
Under the old setup, they would probably have gotten a Pool C bid with two more wins.
Having said that, this does show great incompetence on the part of the NCAA.
Hopenut you beat me to it. If they could justify picking a B team for that C spot they should’ve done it and saved their egg-on, apply directly to the face.
Anyone checked this week’s regional ranking to see if the records are all correct even?
So I guess we can call it the Never Correct Athletic Association
Apparently “The Three Stooges” are alive and well in Indianapolis ….
Maybe it’s because I’m tired and not thinking clearly. And I’m clearly going to be in the minority.
I think the misallocation of Pool C and B bids is bad and unfortunate, but ultimately not worth much outrage.
For starters, 18 Pool C bids is way more than we had not too long ago and, in my opinion, still more than enough to get all the legitimate title contenders in the tournament. If the 18th best team who doesn’t win an AQ doesn’t make the playoffs, I just can’t get that worked up about it. Once you’re that far out on the bubble you are somewhat fortunate to entertaining playoff thoughts any way.
I don’t see how this makes anyone change their game plan entering the tournament. Were there any coaches or players thinking, “Phew, good thing we have that 19th Pool C bid for when we don’t win this weekend?” Does having one less at-large bid change their game plan much?
Plus if the new Pool B bid goes to a PAC or NAthC team, those are conferences with enough members to get automatic bids who just haven’t finished the waiting period yet. I won’t be bummed if the PAC champ gets a chance to play in the tournament. I’m for all inclusion provided there are any adequate number of Pool C bids.
And on the NCAA, they are easy to bash as a faceless organization. But I’ve generally found the people at the Division III level with whom I’ve interacted to be competent and care about this level of play. They aren’t making millions of dollars, smoking cigars and taking cruises while the Division III athletic world burns to the ground.
Like I said, maybe I’m just tired and not thinking clearly. So go ahead and whack me now. 🙂
The most fair thing to do would have been to admit the mistake and make the total field 60 for this year. Place 19 Pool C teams AND 4 Pool B teams into the field. Then the only team that can claim they got hurt by this mistake will be the one highly seeded team who should have gotten a bye, but instead has to play a first round game.
The old “Neanderthals, Chimps And Apes” joke is starting to sound too complimentary.
Chagrined! Chagrined I say! And I would hope that those are imports that the NCAA brought along that caused this error! Yeesh. First the inane QoWI and now this…what’s next? Wait..don’t answer that.
Gordon,
You are right on everything you say, but to me the big issue is the lack of respect and attention to detail shown to Division III. I think that is the issue to get all worked up about.
As other posters have said, if this is wrong how can we trust the Regional rankings, the QOWI and all the other record keeping is being done correctly.
I don’t know if I am mad at the mistake… the lack of oversight to find this sooner… the inability to handle it better than this… or the simple fact that now I don’t know who or what to trust.
We are supposed to be expecting “selections” on Sunday and get the bracket on Monday. This mistake tells me one thing, they are already working on the variables and Westminster (PA) was probably on the outside of the Pool B pick and up for one of the last Pool C bids. Then someone decided to double-check “the numbers” and found the loophole.
I agree that I am not sure what we can trust. The Regional Rankings look ok and Pat has been running our QOWI. But what exactly is the NCAA looking at for these picks? Are their numbers even CLOSE to ours?
And… if this had happened in the DI side of things… they realized in some tournament… a week for it was to begin and days before teams were to be selected that they had made a mistake… IT WOULD BE THE LEAD STORY ON EVERYONE’S TV’s! But in DIII, its a MEMO and move on!
Need to work on getting SOMEONE on Hoopsville to talk about this. I realize I might be dreaming… but its worth a shot.
This reminds me of the bad old days of the late 1980’s and early 1990’s, when we couldn’t know how the NCAA DIII men’s basketball selection committee made its selections.
In my senior year at Brandeis (1990-1991), I was told one night by then Brandeis athletic director Jeff Cohen that the Brandeis men’s basketball team had made it into the field of the NCAA DIII tournament. However, the next morning, when the list came out, Brandeis was not even on it, and I was left guessing as to why– I had been told that Brandeis was in, right?
Is Brandeis or some other elite D3 men’s basketball team that based on the objective criteria deserves to get a Pool C going to get screwed by the NCAA committee again if it loses this weekend? I really don’t like where this is going, and I really don’t trust the selection committee right now to do the right thing.
We have had these shenanigans go on too long in DIII in years past– we don’t need this now. If the field had been expanded 1 team just for this year to correct this mistake, I would have accepted it. I don’t accept this at the last minute.
I agree with JustBill… Keep the 4 Pool B bids, but give us the 19 Pool C’s and raise the tourney to 60. Or, better yet, give us the extra 4 we need for a normal 64 team tournament!
This mistake tells me one thing, they are already working on the variables and Westminster (PA) was probably on the outside of the Pool B pick and up for one of the last Pool C bids. Then someone decided to double-check “the numbers” and found the loophole.
I wonder if that “someone” is at Westminster. If I worked in their AD’s or SID’s office (or Lincoln’s, or Maryville’s, or Chapman’s), you can bet I’d run every possible calculation that might result in an extra Pool B bid.
I’m glad they found the mistake, and I’m glad they corrected it. Nobody was harmed by being under the mistaken impression that there would be 19 bids, although it could be argued that the Pool B contenders may have been harmed by the misapprehension that there would be just 3 B slots.
What bugs me, as I and others have said above, is the apparent lack of interest that allows a mistake such as this to go undiscovered until it is almost too late.
The first paragraph of my response #17 was supposed to be formatted as a quote, quoting d-mac. I screwed it up, but discovered my own mistake before it was too late.
I’m sending my resume to the NCAA. 😀
I hope the explanation will include the reason behind the “honest mistake”. I am personally interested in “what changed”, because I followed the information in the handbook and calculated the “3” Pool B bids on the Pool B message board (Bumblin’ B’s) on page 48, post #706, on October 17, 2006.
Gordon Mann, miscaculating is not earth-shaking, but the principle is significant. We have all of these calls for excellence, adoption of best practices, etc. Some institutions claim to be international centers of excellence. Some members of the NCAA are just trying to provide a good education for the leaders of tomorrow. We all appreciate transparency, and most of us on this board appreciate it when our friends on these boards double-check us.
I expect as much and even more from the “professionals” in Indianapolis. The conduct of the playoffs is the most highly visible activity conducted by the NCAA, unless it is telling us that our mascots are “hostile and abusive”.
The fact that they cannot get it right warrants a serious review of the processes, procedures and the people involved.
If I have made the mistake, I am sorry and I will acknowledge/correct the error. Honest mistakes are easily understood in the “light of day”. Best practices and Six-Sigma changes the systems that led to the error. We should expect the same from Indianapolis.
Let’s hope this prompts the NCAA to identify the errors more quickly. Maybe we can get Mark A. Bockelman, Assistant Director of Championships at the NCAA, to appear on Hoopsville.
I am one of those Pool B followers that’s glad the correction was made, although I was “curious” that it was just discovered now. As a Lincoln alum, I have been watching the regional rankings and QOWI hoping for the best Lincoln. When Lincoln moved ahead of Maryville TN into the second spot behind Aurora, it gave the Lions a little more “breathing room”. We all know what can happen when many teams are competing for that final slot!
I’m glad Indianapolis got it right, although I could never understand why there was a decision to reduce the Pool B’s by one and increase the Pool C’s by one in the first place.
I think I found the error. If you look at the championship handbook, it calculates the Pool B bids based on 37 teams. In the back of the handbook, it lists 38 Pool B teams. Recalculating the ratio using 38 instead of 37 bumps things up to 4.
So if I’ve got it right, this was right in front of our faces all along, and no one noticed the error. Please let me know if you agree with this analysis or not.
Actually, I think the NCAA is pretty decent on transparency in this case.
They announced there was an error instead of quietly picking a fourth B as a C (which might have happened any way). They publish regional rankings and have, as far as I know, been receptive to D3hoops’ questions and corrections about records. And if Pabegg is right, they even had the mistake out there for any of us to catch.
I think being disappointed is fair. And the general concerns this raises about attention to detail are well taken, too.
But I see a lot of issues being mixed in with this issue — mascot decisions, TV contracts, favoritism toward Division I over Division III – that are signs that this is a tempest in a teapot.
And I’m not sure it’s fair or accurate to lump the people who work on Division III issues in with the people who handle the other matters referenced above and make a generalization that everyone in the NCAA is a greedy, incompetent buffoon.
I’m trying mightily to balance Gordon’s helpful plea for reason with the apparent NCAA mistake.
While we ought not go ’round the bend on this thing, at the same time, it does seem [perhaps “transparently”?] that something went wrong in Indianapolis with regards to Pool C.
… truth to tell, however, in my ignorance, at one time I was also firmly convinced that the Houston Oilers would one day win the Super Bowl. 🙁
What credibility? Why is this surprising? They couldn’t read their own mapping software during football season!
Nice people or not, all I want is a bit of competence and accountability. Seems like both are in short supply in Indianapolis these days.
They did finally rid the planet of the scourge known as Chief Illinwek, though!
Another error from the Handbook: Southern Vermont was still listed as a conference member, not as an independent. So there are actually 39 independents.
Again, surprising that no one picked this up until now.
Pabegg, The problem that I have with the Handbook is that the data and the lists are inaccurate.
By my review, I see these Pool B’s, only 37.
Atlantic–0
East–0
Great Lakes–7; (the Presidents AC 7. I believe that Finlandia is a 4th year provisional, not a full member. Pat Coleman lists Finlandia as provisional, too.)
Mid-Atlantic–1 (Lincoln, which moves to D2 in 2008.)
Midwest–13; (Clarke moves to the NAIA. MSOE joins the NAthCon 11 for that conference’s last year as a Provisional Conference.)
Northeast–2; (Newbury and St Joseph’s ME).
South–7; (Great South AC 4; Rust, UDallas and Fisk.)
West–7; (UC Santa Cruz, Chapman, Colorado College which joins the SCAC in 2007-08, Martin Luther College, Neb Wesleyan, College of St Scholastica).
As I list them individually, I only count 37.
Is Finlandia a full member? I thought they were admitted in the same class with Palm Beach Atlantic and UT-Tyler.
While I was typing, you found Southern Vermont. They are the “38th”.
+1! Thanks.
Apparently the 10/16/2006 update was not updated completely!
“Maybe it’s because I’m tired and not thinking clearly. And I’m clearly going to be in the minority.”
Maybe it’s cause I’m tired as well, but I completely agree. My first thought seeing the “shocker” stuff about the Pool C stuff is roughly, “big whoop?” especially given the fact that the same number of total tourney slots are being given out. I do worry about whether the NCAA calculates QOWI correctly, and how important that DIII is to them…. but I already felt that way anyway.
Lets face it, this is neither the travesty or the embarrassment that Carthage’s mascot, Torchie, is. 😀 😉 And on a more serious note, I think Gordon’s point that we still have waaaay more bids than we would have had two years ago is highly cogent. This clerical error is not anywhere near as upsetting to me as the fact that the criteria are wrong and that a league like the CCIW won’t get two bids unless Augustana loses just because we beat ourselves up in conference play. 😛
Let’s put it this way… the timing of this “adjustment” couldn’t have been better.
They announce an extra Pool B bid… and the team in that slot right now – Westminster (PA) – loses tonight! The next team isn’t even close to passing them… but if there were only three teams for Pool B – like many thought going into the day – Westminster might have blown their chance!
Timing!
At least Torchie doesn’t have any of those “hostile and abusive feathers” on the costume! 🙂
After the end of the season, I want to see how many more Midwest Region victories by which teams would have put the next CCIW bubble team into the NCAA playoffs.
Ironically, Torchie existed before Redmen became Red Men. Their giant icecreamcone dude doesn’t suggest a Native American meaning to that name at all. And courtesy of Gordon for those who need reference:
http://www.aboutface-mascots.com/Images/gallery6/67b.jpg
How could sac have ever been on the bandwagon for a team whose mascot looks like that? 😛
Oh my goodness, that has to be the most uncomfortably awkward mascot ever!
For all the complaining about the NCAA in so many forms, so many people still want to be a part of it. Until that changes, I think everyone will deal with the constant issues.
Just one more comment since I got everyone off topic talking about Torchie.
Apparently the person from the NCAA who calculated the # of Pool Cs and Pool Bs went to a DI or DII school. 😀 😀 😀 😉
Diehard, kudos from Minnesota.
Can we get Torchie to warm up the weather here so we get rain instead of snow on Saturday? I want to to be able to go to two basketball games but if it snows I’ll have to bag one of them, and that would likely be the one where we’d have no one in attendance anyway.
Grr. CURSE YOU MOTHER NATURE! 🙂
Ralph,
Finlandia is a full member, so they’re the 38th. They got to skip a year in the process. Southern Vermont was just icing on the cake.
pabegg, thanks!
This summer, I hope that we can get status report on the provisionals, and how much progress that they have made. I would value that story as off-season reading.
Ralph,
I’ve used two resources hidden deep within the NCAA web site. Under Membership, there’s a one page report showing all current and future members in the new member program. Under Committees, the minutes of the membership committee meetings show the actions that they take. Normally, promotion in the program is a topic for the June meeting; since they have several years of archives, you can actually go back to the start of the program (with the original lottery).
pabegg,
When I find you on the message board you’re getting a +Karma. That’s research above and beyond the call of duty.
Look at last year’s field and note that of the teams with more than 5 losses only Illinois Wesleyan (6 losses) got to Final 4. Most others with 6 losses or more folded in round 1, so to many schools getting in is more for recruiting than anything else.
It’s hard to believe in a system that rewards geography rather than ability. Last year two teams in the Top 25 did not go.
But the complaining is just beginning. Wait til next week when teams who expected to play at home or receive a bye find out otherwise.
Lake Erie Hosts the conference Championship once again. Mad Props Men! When we take care of buisness tonight and tomorrow we should definately host a first round tournament game in the dance. Good Luck to all teams in the Great Lakes Region. I checked out the weather forecast for this weekend in Painesville and I heard that there was a “STORM” coming through. Yeaaaaah! Lets do this!
I am certainly glad that Lake Erie did not choke to PSU-Behrend today. There are a lot of D3 fans from the Power Conferences (OAC, CCIW, WIAC, etc.) who have considered that a “wasted” Pool C bid. 🙂
Page 46 of the Handbook (Revised 02/22/2007) still lists Southern Vermont as a member of the Great Northeast Athletic Conference!