I’m having a hard time deciding how to process the record set by Grinnell point guard David Arseneault. He was credited with 34 assists in the Pioneers’ 151-112 blowout of North Central (Minn.), a team barely in Division III and 1-5 against a schedule consisting primarily of bible schools and members of the UMAC, probably the worst conference in D-III.
If this were at all achieved within the normal framework of a basketball game, I’d be thrilled and you wouldn’t be reading this blog. But as you may have read on the front page, Arseneault played 38 minutes, perhaps the norm for a top-notch point guard but nowhere near normal for a System player. Here’s how much coach Dave Arseneault played his son through the first seven games: 17 minutes, 22, 19, 21, 20, 23, with 27 minutes in the most recent contest before Saturday.
Then there’s what was said afterward:
“Coming into the game we had a game plan looking to get John Grotberg a lot of points, and maybe me getting the assists record in the process while also getting Keith Chamberlain some points,” Arseneault explained. “Everything went well. At halftime we looked at the situation and said we’ll give it a further shot, and everything turned out.”
Is that what basketball is reduced to? Trying to get someone a record? Taking advantage of a bad team to get your name in the record books?
I’m not sure this is so much better than what Lincoln did to Ohio State-Marion last December, scoring 201 points.
At least those numbers are on the scoreboard, for everyone to see. Assists are a matter of rulebook interpretation, and trust me, awarding of assists vary widely.
“They were keeping track on the bench,” he said. “Sometimes when a group came on the court they’d tell me how close I was.”
And then he stayed on the floor after assist No. 27. And 28, etc. That’s what bothers me — we make a mockery of the record book, push a great performance by Robert James of Kean on March 11, 1989, onto history’s recycle bin.
March is a great time to set a record. You know it has to be in a meaningful performance, in a game that means everything.
Not a game where the goal is to run up as big a stat line as possible.
I think that some of you are stretching a little bit to find something to argue about. You sound like guys on ESPN about Bill Belichick running up the score on teams. Why is it Grinnells fault for competing for 40 minutes? You should be questioning North Central for not putting the starting PG on his butt or fouling him.
You are getting on a coach about having a kid pass the ball to his teammates. Records are made to be broken and Grinnell’s system breaks records. Deal with it. Plus, if you havent seen Grinnell play before then your views are skewed a bit to start. Once again, these are my opinions.
It’s not Grinnell’s fault for competing for 40 minutes. It’s their fault for leaving the starting point guard out there for 38. Why is this so hard to understand?
I dont completely understand why they left their starting PG in for 38 minutes either? What if he had gotten hurt? But when you look at Grinnell’s system, what makes sense about it? The only thing I see is that they want to score alot of points, which means opportunities for assists.
deigo – records were made to be broken, but in the spirit of the game. Do you think the spirit of the game or any competition was being considered when the plan going IN to the game was to break the record. It has already been stated that the record was considered (along with a scoring record), because Grinnel knew they were going to kill the opposing team. I’m sorry, but sportsmanship is a very high standard in the NCAA and many, if not all, conferences – thus the sportsmanship statements read before games and in programs – and to decide to take advantage of a weaker opponent for the sense of personal gain and glory, is anything BUT sportsmanlike.
And since when is it North Central’s responsibility to take out the point guard to avoid the stat from happening? That role should be on the COACH of the team, who actually decided to make the run for the stat instead. I am sure it wasn’t easy for NC to hit him on a hard screen or foul him… since he was cherry picking on the offensive side of the court with his teammate… with the soul intention of scoring. From what Coach A had to say, they weren’t part of the defense during the game. It isn’t that hard to throw a pass to a teammate, when both of you are probably WIDE open.
Heck, we all know why North Central scored 112 points, they were playing 5-on-3 basketball!
I HAVE seen Grinnel play and I have seen the “system” in action on other occasions. I think it is a fascinating game plan that can truely be both exciting and intense. It certainly can through a team off who has to play against it. And sure, teams can come back from 20 or so down, but it hardly happens. What Grinnel did on Saturday was take advantage of a weaker team and in my opinion embarrass the Grinnel name and the opponent.
By the way, the “system” has very little, if any, success in the NCAA Tournament. While it is great and you get your wins, I wouldn’t call it a successful game plan. That being said, most coaches – like Gary Smith, formerly at Redlands, admits he ran it because he wanted to get everyone involved and interested. The difference is, I bet Smith never considered taking advantage of a weaker opponent… just to achieve records for the team or a player.
HoopDreams – where were you when Lincoln put 201 points up in one game against a team that simply wasn’t any competition? You may think Pat is a poor king – though he has every right to question anything he wants, as do I and anyone else – but you make for a poor jester! And could you stick to the point of discussion?!
This “controversy” is clearly trumped up by Pat Coleman to increase the “hit rate” on his website. That way he can report higher data to his advertisers, and raise the rent. In the meantime, it is all at the expense of hard working student athletes. The league owes much to Coach A and his vision. He brought D3 basketball to ESPN. Others like Pat Coleman just report on it and skew issues for their own agenda. Ethics….different viewpoints. ??!!**&&
Yawn. A few extra comments on the blog is a drop in the bucket compared to 18,000,000 page views on the front.
If you can’t make a point on the actual topic at hand then that’s your last comment here.
Jeez HoopDreams… you have got to be kidding! Just for the record, if Pat and his “crew” (which I am a proud member of) hadn’t designed and ran this site, I am pretty sure you wouldn’t have a place to even chat about it – though it appears you haven’t started chatting about the topic at hand and you aren’t about to.
And Pat Coleman has been a guest of ESPN on air MANY times to chat about Division III sports. And while Coach A was certainly involved in the game – he isn’t the one, or the only one, that brought that game to ESPN. I am pretty sure my memory serves that there were many others involved in ESPN covering a game and which one they chose.
I agree with Pat, please stick to the topic or don’t bother even replying – PLEASE!
Great to hear back. The topic at hand is should a player be allowed to play 38 minutes with a goal of winning a game and setting an assist record. Clearly it depends on your point of view. For example, the Yankees played Lou Gehrig at times when he was sick and injured so he could set the consecutive games played record. He put it very far out of reach for his era. It was only a neurological disease, now named for him, that took him out of the lineup. Did the Yankees need him to beat weaker teams? No. Did he need to play in every game? No. His mark was a personal record which reflects on him and the Yankees. When you think of the Yankees, you think of Gehrig, and vice-versa. What matters in coming to an opinion or viewpoint on the assist record in basketball is, to a large extent, your previous experiences and comparison points. Keep Lou Gehrig in your mind. And don’t forget to vote in what now has been made a front page ballot item for d3hoops.com.
This conversation seems to have devolved into a(nother) discussion of the merits and demerits of “The System.” But what most everyone seems to be overlooking is that this record was achieved precisely because the System was not employed (or at least altered to benefit Mr. Arsenault fils). The System produces ridiculous numbers in most every category, offensive and defensive, and while many may take these numbers with a shrug of the shoulders, there is rarely any outrage and cries of unsportsmanlike behavior are seldom heard. But this situation is quite different. As Pat explains in the OP, Arsenault played many more minutes than he would have in a “normal” System game, and it is clear from the coach’s comments that the reason for this is precisely so this record could be achieved. Add to this the shocking revelation that, on the coach’s instruction, Arsenault and a designated scorer were planted on the offensive end for the entire game, evidently with no role other than to produce (presumably uncontested) assists, and you get an extremely disquieting result. If this record had been achieved in the course of a “normal” System game, I doubt whether anyone would have been disturbed. But when the primary goal of a gameplan is to produce statistical glory for an individual player, as appears was the case here, it is very disturbing.
HoopDreams. Great example — if the 1920s Yankees were predicated around a player playing 4-1/2 innings. Otherwise still irrelevant.
Hoops – before reading everything else and being away from this discussion for some time… comparing PRO sports to amateur sports won’t work. Pros are payed to play… and in a baseball season, a weaker team can beat a stronger team in a three-game series.
Plus the fact, Gehrig and the rest are PROs. Tell the owner of the team and the fans who paid those salaries that you sat a player because you felt like it or the other team was weaker – which actually DOES happen! (Check the NFL late in seasons!)
This is amateur sports. This is D3 basketball. There are no checks and no payments for playing. Your comparison is weak.
And David – interesting point about how the system was abandoned for a higher goal!
And Grinnell has abandoned the system before for a higher goal…..protecting the integrity of another team.
If you read the communication from “arseneau”, he says with regard to the minutes played and the court configuration “I have done this in past years on a number of occasions.” So it is well within his normal range of game plans. Do coaches need to file established, previously used, game plans on this site to avoid the wrath of “I need an assist” and its author? Because the crux of the argument is “did Grinnell do this before”? The coach says yes, a number of times. Does the d3hoops.com leadership not trust that?
If the minutes were the same, but the assist record not broken against NCUM, then would we have an “I need a minute.” blog? Doubtful, though the minute argument would still be available. Interesting about minutes. The last 15 minutes of the Grinnell-Monmouth game, “arseneau” shifted his game plan to a slow-down offense which produced 16 points according to the play-by-play record. That was done to protect the new Monmouth coach from a lopsided loss. The final score was 100-80, a 0.80 point ratio, as compared to the 0.74 point ratio in the NCUM game. Essentially identical outcomes. So can we have a blog about this extreme variation of Grinnell strategy? It seem only fair. How about “Thanks for the courtesy”.
I wonder what New Jersey City’s Dana John thinks about all of this?
Did they do it before? Apparently so.
Does that make it right? No, not in my mind and apparently the minds of many others.
It’s not about playing minutes, Dreams, it’s about going out of your way to intentionally break a record in a premeditated fashion.
Thanks for almost discussing the topic. I feel like you’re beginning to actually read what’s taking place here.
Indeed, sac, WWDJD?
PC: Apparently you are the one making progress, since your “I need an assist” diatribe is predicated on minutes played with a listing from previous games. Now you say “It’s not about playing minutes”. That is a complete reversal, so maybe you are sensing something about reality. As for premeditated breaking of a record, the O’s got a lot of mileage for Cal Ripken Jr breaking Lou Gehrig’s record. All premeditated, hyped, marketed, and also revered. Whether it is PRO or amateur, the concept of premeditation is accurate for both of these records. And Ripken had his detractors, (he’s too old, let the rookies play, this is just for a record, etc) so you can feel some comradeship there. But for Grinnell, this record will stand regardless of your objections, as does the record for Ripken. Grinnell is an outstanding institution, and will survive your efforts otherwise.
It’s about playing minutes TO BREAK A RECORD.
You’re done here. You are just rabble rousing and spinning away from the actual topic.
I apologize to the rest of the commenters for not shutting this down earlier.
Hoop: “Do coaches need to file established, previously used, game plans…” Every game that his team plays is a way to file an established game plan. When coaches go away from the “norm” whether it be the “System” or what ever the other programs in the country do, win or lose it gets noticed. If you lose, the fans, administration, boosters, etc. ask questions as to why??? When you win, they ask why you changed and if more is coming. If the change is for personal goals, most of us in “Real Basketball” world question that since it is a team sport. I respect his decision to present his side of the story, but we are still allowed to question it. You seem awfully personal about this either cause you’re part of the team, coach, parent, or a really really die hard Grinnell fan and I think you need to respect what everyone else including Pat is saying and where we are coming from.
I think if the minutes were the same and the record was broken, then we most certainly wouldn’t be talking about it. To say that the last 15 minutes he shifted his game plan to prevent the new Monmouth coach from a lopsided loss, I think is not exactly correct. Maybe it had to do with the fact that Grinnell was slipping a bit in the second half and not shooting as well. To avoid the loss to a winless team, he made an adjustment to be more methodical. I was not there and am basically going by the box score. If he was so gracious towards the new coach at Monmouth, why be greedy in personal victories against NCUM and shoot 46 more FG’s and 33 more 3’s? I think that would be a shot ratio of like 1.55 from normal for total FG’s and staggering 2.61 for 3’s. This is ridiculous and IMO…not basketball.
To continue the conversation: I got word from a North Central player that like 32 of the 34 assists came on basically hand-offs. Also, heard NCU was up by 10 with 13 minutes left. Grinnell went on like a 30-0 run.
The box score shows that was a seven-point lead with 16:18 left in the first half. NCU led by six as late as 13:59 in the first half and never led in the second.
http://www.grinnell.edu/athletics/mbasketball/includes/128men.htm
“That being said, most coaches – like Gary Smith, formerly at Redlands, admits he ran it because he wanted to get everyone involved and interested. The difference is, I bet Smith never considered taking advantage of a weaker opponent… just to achieve records for the team or a player.” dmac
Ummm, guess where Coach Smith is serving as an assistant this year? Yup, he got to see the record first hand from the Grinnell bench. http://www.grinnell.edu/athletics/mbasketball/staff/
Let me take another angle at this. Davey A broke the record approximately midway through the second half. If they had pulled himback at this point, would the outcry be the same? I’m guessing not. But would the arguments be different? He would have broken the record with a concerted effort to do that, he would have played more minutes than normal, and his team was winning big.
I guess I’m asking, “Is the issue with the 7 extra assists in the extra minutes?” Just another way to look at it. I know what the “Grinnell’s game is an abomination” folks are going to say, but I’d be interested in your answer Pat.
Hoop – you need to take the time and read all the posts. Pat is NOT the only person who has brought up the minutes stat. And every poster has used it to prove that the normal game plan was abandoned and the intent for the entire game (even after the record was broken) was to break the record.
The crust of this is… instead of letting a record happen in a normal play of a game, a team decided before hand (and probably practiced) to put aside everything else and help a teammate break a record.
This isn’t like a player going for a career point mark, which takes plenty of games and will happen at some point in time (if they are close). This isn’t something that was achievable easily during game action. This was an effort to break a record that while, sure, needed teammates to hit shots, but was at such a level needed to achieve… a complete change to the game-plan and execution was needed.
What’s worse, it was decided because the opponent was considered inferior and according to Coach A, he needed to find some way to motivate his team (heck, he even said he tries to find ways to get fans to games – I certainly hope there wasn’t a promise to fans of this gameplan). Coach A also admitted to talking to the opposition’s coach prior to the game, in my opinion further showing a lack of respect and sportsmanship towards the opponent.
I repeat my point that the NCAA and many – if not all – conferences consider sportsmanship to be one of the most important aspects of collegiate sports. This is very unsportsmanlike.
I repeat my point that this is amateur sports and most importantly, Division III athletics. This division is all about student-athletics… with the “student” properly the first part of that description. What exactly did the students on Grinnel’s team learn? And what exactly did the students for North Central learn?
As for your reference to Cal Ripken and pros… just stop. I have covered the Orioles and Cal Ripken with my job for a number of years. The flaw in your arguement is the simple fact, there was no other player better than Cal playing for the O’s or in the minors, even in his older years, to replace him. If you can think of one, try me. I promise you won’t.
Secondly, in the pros… you are paid to play. The higher the contract, the better you are considered, and thus the better chance you will play. Cal is a Hall of Famer without “The Streak”.
What you are trying to compare, by the way, is a career long goal and there were MANY factors along the way that allowed that record to happen. There wasn’t ONE game where the O’s said, hey… how about we twist the way we play so that Ripken can get as many at bats as possible just to break the hits record in the game (a bad game by the Braves allowed that). There was also no point in time where they thought they were going to be playing an inferior team – because after all… it’s the pros and they are all highly qualified.
Hoops… drop the pros example. Of all places, D3 sports shouldn’t be compared since almost all of these athletes won’t play in the pros… and because of the true essence of Division III.
One final thought… since when are individual stats more important than how the team does on the whole. Coach A says he puts in goals to make sure players kept their averages high. Are you kidding me?! Apparently Grinnel – even when successful – would rather make sure the guys achieve their individual goals, then give the program and the athletic department a chance at conference or national glory.
I don’t think it would be much different. The premeditation would still stand. It still would be a significant departure from the Grinnell norm. It would probably be tempered somewhat but the intent is the key, I think.
Hoopsville listeners know D-mac is aware of where Smith is coaching this year.
What would DJD? I doubt he has time to read all of this.
I really did appreciate seeing the Grinnell coach voice his thoughts on this blog. That is pretty cool.
This situation of 34 assists was absurd!
Here is an equally absurd parallel.
Hopefully, this will never be seen in a basketball game:
So there is a Division 3 basketball team. We will call them Team G. Team G’s center had an off game last game and only had four blocks (he had been averaging 5.1). Luckily, a weak opponent is coming to town and the coach sees this as an opportunity to get the big guy feeling good again. The coach outlines a gameplan telling the other players on the team that this game is going to be played to win, but also to get the big guy feeling confident again (gotta get him his blocks in order for him to elevate his game). The game plan consists of resting the big guy for two minutes total, and when his team is playing defense, to allow the opposing team to drive in the lane so that the center can get his blocks per game up and hopefully set a single game block record.
Afterall, the big guy would love to hold a record. The coach thinks it is kind of cool too.
So the coach goes up to the other team’s coach before the game and says, “Look, we know you’re doing us a favor coming out here to get smoked by us, but our big fella needs to stay hungry. Our guards and forwards are going to let your guys run by us and they are going to force your guys into taking shots near the big fella. The center has been told to reject as many shots as physically possible in 38 minutes. It will probably be somewhere between 30 and 40 shots. After that our big guy should feel good. Just a heads up. That sound cool?”
That’s an equally absurd parallel.
That’s a bit more info, thanks, Pat.
But as the story goes, at least from the Arseneau’s, the plan wasn’t strictly to get the assists record from the beginning of the game. I thought I understood that the decision was made at half after he already had 14. That probably doesn’t change your opinion, but it does change the intent at some level – if nothing else it takes some of the shine off walzy’s parallel.
BTW, if d-mac knows where Smith is coaching, shouldn’t he brush up on how to spell the school’s (and city’s) name. 😉
You spell Arseneault correctly and we’ll work on Dave’s spelling of Grinnell. 🙂
This is the 80th response to “I need an assist.” That’s 80 assists. You’ve got the record now, and as the game is well in hand, I think you should sit down and take a rest, and let the backups play for a while. 🙂
David – classic!
Very nice!
Sorry… added another. Am I pilling on or running up the score?
systemfan86 Says:
“December 11th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
But as the story goes, at least from the Arseneau’s, the plan wasn’t strictly to get the assists record from the beginning of the game. I thought [b]I understood that the decision was made at half after he already had 14.[/b]”
not according to this post
arseneau Says:
December 10th, 2007 at 1:33 am
“While I have set up a number of these game plans, I would never try to embarrass an opponent or opposing coach. As it relates to this past Saturday, anticipating that we may be the better team, I did confer with the North Central coach before the game.”
and later in that post
“Like it or not, the game plan was to let two players remain at the offensive end of the court and see what happened.”
sure sounds like it was predetermined that they would make a run at breaking the assist record well before the game to me…
My thought may be a little different than everyone else’s here…so I’m warning you now! lol. In the end, isn’t it the opponent’s job to stop the other team from recording any records against it? Aside from the two coaches, no one knows what was said, but if the North Central coach got any indication that Grinnell was going to attempt to set any sort of record against his team, wouldn’t he do anything in his power to prevent it? I would. I would also find it insulting if I found out before, during and to a lesser extent after the game. I went to a small D3 private college and for some reason, during my playing days (soccer), our school played D2 Parkside for several years running. If I overheard a Parkside player say he wanted to try to break the single-game goal-scoring record against us, I would do everything possible to stop that. So, if coach said he’s going for the assist record for his son, why not try to prevent that, no matter how bad your team is?
I guess the point of it all is that Coach A planned this knowing he was going up against an inferior team. Sure, that’s not real sportsmanlike, but neither is Lincoln’s idea of fun or the idiot coach that calls a timeout with 3 seconds left to set up a play so his player can get that last assist for his first ever triple double. It happens.
As much as I dislike Team A taking advantage of Team B’s level of competition (because I’ve been that Team B), it’s going to happen and it’s their job (or mine) to stop that from happening.
Amused that one particular commenter has been going to machines around his school — a non-Division III school at that — and has been attempting to stuff the ballot box. 🙂
I would be questioning the stat taker in this case. Of course I didn’t seen the game (and most of you didn’t either), but from the descriptions of the game and the definition of an assist, it would raise a red flag to me as to whether the assists were being properly rewarded.
From the NCAA Basketball Statistician’s Manual (irrelevant portions removed):
“A player is credited with an assist when the player makes, in the judgment
of the statistician, the principal pass contributing directly to a field goal (or
an awarded score of two or three points). Only one assist is to be credited on
any field goal and only when the pass was a major part of the play.
“Such a pass should be either (a) a pass that finds a player free after he or she
has maneuvered without the ball for a positional advantage, or (b) a pass that
gives the receiving player a positional advantage he or she otherwise would
not have had.
“Philosophy. An assist should be more than a routine pass that just happens
to be followed by a field goal. It should be a conscious effort to find the open
player or to help a player work free.”
From a couple descriptions of the game, it appears that two players spent much of their time “cherry-picking” in the front court. Another report says some were handoffs. With these descriptions I would question whether all those passes were “a major part of the play” and whether they were “more than a routine pass that just happens to be followed by a field goal.” I’d like to hear from the SID or his stat taker on this one. My gut feeling tells me that an SID applying the rules likely wouldn’t have come up with 34 assists, but of course I didn’t see the game.
Just Bill – very good point… something I have been thinking about as well.
Just Bill,
Great catch! However, weren’t the stats Grinnell provided taken from their own bench? I highly doubt that whomever was taking the stats from the Grinnell bench was worried about the true definition of what an assist is. Especially considering the plan going into the game was to break the assist record.
Maybe someone from the NCAA who handles the record books should take a look at the game film and determine just how many of those 34 assists were within the guidelines of what an actual assist is and how many were just hand-offs as a result of the 2 of them (Arsenault and Grotberg) cherry-picking the entire game?
The official stats should come from the SID (or a person assigned by the SID). Teams can track whatever they want on the bench, but the final numbers should be what the SID recorded.
Even if they were cherry-picking that doesn’t automatically negate an assist. If NCU got even one defender back and the pass was necessary to beat that defender then the scorer could legitimately award that assist. Assist are always tricky because they are inherently the scorer’s judgement call in a split second. I’m sure every SID believes there’s another SID they work with who’s “too hard” or “too soft” on assists.
I think everyone is taking this way too far! If you don’t want a record broken on you, do not allow your opponent to break it! Conrats to Grinnell…I hope you and your team set many more records to come!
Happy Holidays!
I think that hand offs or quick flips should count as assists as long as the receipient of the hand off or flips goes directly into a shot. If he/she takes a dribble to better position his/herself, then not an assist. I say this because in order for this to be possible, the shooter has to set his defender up in order to get to the ball handler, plus the ball handler can act as a screener as well to get his teammate into a better position to shoot/score. It may be a step farther away from the basket, but the shooter is now open and better scoring position.
I’m sure many will disagree with this, and that is fine, but we had a play like this in our playbook. Both the ball handler and shooter have to set up their defenders in order for this to work, but if it works…open shots all day baby! I was the one getting the handoff or flip, so I can see giving the assist to the one giving me the ball.
Pioneer – in your description… I would have handed out assists. Both players were finding ways to get the man open and assist in getting a shot.
However, your description has one thing in it that it seems Grinnell didn’t have to deal with: defenders.
From the descriptions we have had from Coach A and others… the two Grinnell players were in the offensive side of the court for most of the game. I doubt defenders were running down the court to stop them on long outlet passes; especially as the game wore on!
d-mac – valid point. I’m sure that NCUM was going to take advantage as much as they could with the 5 on 3, but not every shot goes in or comes right to one of the three guys playing defense, which would lead me to believe there had to be some, maybe a little, but some defense when Grinnell was popping 3’s. Here’s a question, if a player gets a steal and dribbles the length of the court sees’ that there is no defenders, but has the big man runnin with him, and with a 2 on 0 break, turns hands the ball to the big man who immediately jumps and slams it home, is that considered an assist? Pretty much the same thing, no defense, nothing done to get open, but a pass that leads directly to a bucket.
I don’t agree with the way the record was achieved, but I also don’t know why they NCUM didn’t just match up man to man where ever Grinnell was playing.
Pioneer Hoops Fan,
I would say that would be based on interpretation as far as the fast break goes. I would look at it as the two players broke free from the rest of the defenders with the big man doing it without the ball. In that sense they were doing it within the rules and the passer should be given the assist.
If you look at it as though nobody else was going down the floor to even contest the shot then you can interpret it as though he didn’t gain any kind of favorable position just by being open for the dunk and by rule the player passing the ball most likely shouldn’t be given an assist.
As Just Bill stated the manual says it’s “in the judgment of the statistician”.
dballa,
I agree with you and have read the rules posted before, it is tough because that is the way the rule stated. It is different than say a two or three point basket which is clearly defined, but knowing the situation that we are conversing about and how the record was set, I think that we are quick to judge what constitutes an assist based on the rule book, whereas in the example I gave we may be more likely to credit an assist because there isn’t any question about it to start with. Regardless if there were defenders getting back on the break.
I’m sure I’m(we’re) getting off topic a bit, and I will state that I don’t agree with they way the record was broken, or the Grinnell system to begin with, but that is their perogative. I’m just tryin to give a little spin on it.
it doesn’t matter what system the team is running or if the official scorer interpretted the assist rule accurately…the crux is this: a coach intentionally devised a game plan to set an individual record against an inferior opponent – going to the point of discussing this game plan with the opposing coach, players on his team and who knows who else (given the coverage on the grinnell website and the nature of small college athletics, it’s not unlikely that folks in the crowd, administrators and maybe even the official scorer knew that one of the goals that evening was to break the assists record) – and he seems to think that he exhibited good sportsmanship
i just think that line of thinking is a bit twisted and if i were a student, staff member or administrator at grinnell, i would not be proud of how this went down, and i certainly wouldn’t be proud that it was being glorified on the college home page (not even the athletic home page, mind you) – sportsmanship is, in large part, respecting your opponent – i don’t see how it is respectful to rub salt in a wound (a 39 point blowout) by glorifying an individual record set by a kid who played almost double the minutes he plays in a normal game and deploying a tactic that would almost certainly NEVER be used in a game that mattered or that was close (allowing 2 players to stay on the offensive side of the court for large portions of the game)
It seems to me that Coach A is facing a trade-off between being unsportsmanlike and losing. He recruits more talented athletes than his predecessors on the agreement that they will have an opportunity to set individual records. To continue getting better recruits, he must deliver on his promises when the opportunities arise, which may often come against weaker teams.
Is it better to lose or to be a poor sport? Maybe it’s the fault of the Grinnell Athletic Department for valuing winning over integrity.
As an SID, I have to say that IF (and that’s a big IF since I didn’t see the game) assists were given to Arsenault after receiving an outlet pass when he and another player where completely alone on the offensive end, this record needs to come under serious scrutiny from the NCAA. There is definitely room for judgment in the statistician’s manual, but the statisticians’ manual has a very specific example that basically states in such a case, the player throwing the OUTLET pass should get the assist if there is one awarded. (Yes, that’s right, the manual says that a player can be given an assist even if he or she did not make the last pass.) Scenario A in the following example covers this pretty definitively:
Example AR 10
“After taking a rebound off the defensive board, Adams passes
quickly to Allen at the division (i.e., mid-court) line. (a) Allen is open but
passes to Adler, who scores an uncontested layup; (b) Allen is open but
passes back to Adams, who had broken to the basket immediately after the
first pass and receives Allen’s pass to score the uncontested layup; (c) Allen is
covered and passes to Adler, who scores an uncontested layup; or (d) Allen
is covered, passes to Adler, who returns the ball to Allen, who then scores
having lost his or her defensive man after the pass to Adler. RULING: In (a),
credit Adams with an assist. In (b) and (c), credit Allen with an assist. In (d),
credit Adler with an assist.
Scenario B is addressing a fast-break situation where the scorer is breaking to the basket on the outlet (rather than already being unguarded on the offensive end). Scenario A covers the “two man cherry pick” situation that has been discussed here.
I just wanted to add that I’m in no way taking a side in the “ethical” debate here of purposefully trying to set a record in a one-sided game – just providing the text that the manual covers the “two man cherry pick” pretty explicitly.
Again, I’m definitely not in a position to say that numerous assists were credited under the above scenario, but IF they were, they were done so incorrectly.
I was actually at the game. There was indeed someone assigned to record the stats that is not on the team, just to clear that up. Also, I have to say I have a lot of respect for the players on the other team: they played hard even though they knew they weren’t going to win, and did some stuff far more ridiculous than Grinnell (one of their players took and mad a shot over his back when he was on a breakaway, which they had many more of than Grinnell due to the way we were playing).
Also, I must inform you that most of the assists were not on breakaways. In fact, the whole keeping people just on offense strategy seemed to fall apart, and usually resulted in either Keith Chamberlain making some insane shot through 3 defenders or making a layup/dunk just as a defender reached him or John Grotbeg shooting a three. There were a couple “handoff” plays, but there always are, so it wasn’t anything out of the norm.
Finally, Grinnell was pretty much playing a slowed down offense. Whenever we were on offense, we took the time to pass the ball to David, and because the other team knew he was going for the record, they were definitely trying to stop him, which led to a lot of passing around before shooting. Imagine if he had not been going for the record: instead of having a tired, always passing David Arsenault we would have had a bunch of fresh players shooting AND passing, and while David might not have had as many assists, we certainly would have had a lot more points.
Finally, David is always leading the league in assists, so if anyone were to break it in the course of a normal game, it would be him.
Anyway, I don’t think I will ever in my life see a more ridiculous game of basketball played in my life. Both teams were dunking all over the place, making crazy plays, and playing their hearts out. Our fans were cheering as much for the other team as they were for Grinnell, and despite the lopsided loss I hope they had as good of a time playing as we did watching.
There’s a lot more I could say, but I’ll close with the following: check out a Grinnell game! Say what you will about the system, but I have never had more fun in my life watching a team play basketball than I do while watching Grinnell, and aren’t the fans what it’s really all about?
I think you all need to understand a little more about how “the system” works. Grinnell has played with this two-man cherry pick for years… but it’s hardly noticable because they press every possession (at least in the first half). That leaves the floor spread with the two cherry pickers back. Back in 1997 when Jeff Clement broke the three pointers made per game record (19-52 from three point range, 77 points) Grinnell employed the same gameplan in a conference game. This isn’t just some wild hair-brained scheme to get records, this is how Grinnell wins basketball games. It allows them to spread the floor and find their best shooters on a repeated basis. Those of who who think this is a bastardization of basketball need to realize that teams haven’t found a good way to stop it. I can remember Illinois College actually guarding Clement while they had the basketball because they were so worried that he would score… but simply because this isn’t what you’re used to doesn’t mean that we don’t hand out assists to a player that clearly achieved through the system in place.
Grinnell forced 34 turnovers to only 10 of their own. Grinnell had 45 offensive rebounds. This sounds like a situation where Grinnell had 40 +-5 shots after missed shots. These might have been run through Arseneault. (WITH DEFENSE unless NCU was so slow that they gave up offensive rebounds AND another shot before they decided to run 90 feet.)
Grinnell hit 23 three pointers, most of which I am guessing came from Arseneault passes. The pass led directly to a shot, by definition an assist. Having watched the cherry-picker game before, as I previously stated, I am guessing NCU was back on defense because their whole offense wouldn’t have had time to run down the floor by the time they had already scored off the press.
The great thing about basketball is that it is a creative sport and that there are so many ways to play it. NCU could have held the ball for 35 seconds each possession if they were played 3 on 5. But they didn’t, and now we’re talking about it.
1979sia –
Let’s be clear on one point, no one attends a school like Grinnell just to play basketball. If they did, they wouldn’t be there for long.
Grinnell is an academics-first school that is rated as one of the top small liberal arts schools in the nation. So when they are recruiting players, they might discuss records, but they have to sell the academic benefits first. If the player can’t hack the school work, I doubt they are even admitted.
Grinnell will likely never win (nor compete) for a D3 championship. Not sure that’s the goal. They want to be competitive, wins as often as possible, and have a good time doing it. ‘The system’ has essentially provided this for the school. Yes, there are times when the numbers are emphasized, but that’s not necessarily inconsistent; conceptually, ‘the system’ is predicated on an analysis that indicates that if you meet five statistical goals, you will most likely win. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that numbers are important.
I’ve stated that I find the record a bit hard to celebrate given the situation surrounding it. But I think there has been a great deal of supposition in this discussion by people who weren’t at the game, and I’d be concerned that those suppositions are coloring people’s opinions.