I’m having a hard time deciding how to process the record set by Grinnell point guard David Arseneault. He was credited with 34 assists in the Pioneers’ 151-112 blowout of North Central (Minn.), a team barely in Division III and 1-5 against a schedule consisting primarily of bible schools and members of the UMAC, probably the worst conference in D-III.
If this were at all achieved within the normal framework of a basketball game, I’d be thrilled and you wouldn’t be reading this blog. But as you may have read on the front page, Arseneault played 38 minutes, perhaps the norm for a top-notch point guard but nowhere near normal for a System player. Here’s how much coach Dave Arseneault played his son through the first seven games: 17 minutes, 22, 19, 21, 20, 23, with 27 minutes in the most recent contest before Saturday.
Then there’s what was said afterward:
“Coming into the game we had a game plan looking to get John Grotberg a lot of points, and maybe me getting the assists record in the process while also getting Keith Chamberlain some points,” Arseneault explained. “Everything went well. At halftime we looked at the situation and said we’ll give it a further shot, and everything turned out.”
Is that what basketball is reduced to? Trying to get someone a record? Taking advantage of a bad team to get your name in the record books?
I’m not sure this is so much better than what Lincoln did to Ohio State-Marion last December, scoring 201 points.
At least those numbers are on the scoreboard, for everyone to see. Assists are a matter of rulebook interpretation, and trust me, awarding of assists vary widely.
“They were keeping track on the bench,” he said. “Sometimes when a group came on the court they’d tell me how close I was.”
And then he stayed on the floor after assist No. 27. And 28, etc. That’s what bothers me — we make a mockery of the record book, push a great performance by Robert James of Kean on March 11, 1989, onto history’s recycle bin.
March is a great time to set a record. You know it has to be in a meaningful performance, in a game that means everything.
Not a game where the goal is to run up as big a stat line as possible.
Jeez… I don’t know which quote irks me more… the first one that makes it sound that the record was the goal going in… or the second one that makes me realize he wasn’t being subbed for at any point and the team was keeping him up-to-date on the feat. You almost wish they were keeping the wrong count and the SID had a far smaller number in the stats.
I am all for a record when it happens through regular game action. But the simple fact that they knew they would kill the oposition and went into the game with the mind set of setting one record and maybe two… is sickening.
Granted, Lincoln probably didn’t go into the game thinking they would score 201 points or planned on it. Their record is sickening because once it was obvious they were killing OSM, they didn’t back down and continued to pour it on.
This is worse… it was coinsidered, thought about, planned, and then executed on the court. What is lost in this is the fact the team was planning on breaking records, but couldn’t keep the opposition from scoring 112 points. I know the “system” is not designed to take defense in mind… but this team allowed a very sub-par team to still score 112 points. Maybe Grinnel should have been thinking about playing better defense, then making sure their guard and coach’s son found a cheap way into the record books.
From my perspective, an SID for 10 years and counting now and also as someone who really enjoys numbers, stats and records I completely agree with Pat and D-Mac on this subject.
I have no rooting interest and have never ever seen Grinnell play although I have seen the “system” in action by other schools. So I know what it is all about.
I find this record breaking performance appalling for the following reasons:
#1 – It was premediated. They were quoted as game planning to attempt to break this and a maybe other records not only this game but in others during previous years. Since when in a TEAM game do coaches encourage players to play games with the goal of breaking an INDIVIDUAL record. The very thought of that makes me sick.
#2 – It was done at the expense of another team. They had zero care for the other team in this game. They were comfortably leading the game at the half (25 points) and continued to lead by 30+ points early in the second half. They went away from normal “system” habits by playing the better players more (IE – the 38 minutes by Arsenault) and had no care for acting with class when pounding a team by so many points. A classy program calls off the dogs at some point. This was never done from my view.
#3 – It disrespects so many things but most of all the record holder himself. As mentioned above the player who had the record likely did it in a game with lots of meaning (having been set in March) and probably in a game that was competitve for all 40 minutes or more (OT). I can tell a true story that once happened in a basketball game of the team I work for as an SID now. I had a player score 30+ points in a game falling one point shy of the single-game points record a few years ago. I knew sitting at the scorer’s table at the time that the record was one basket away and debated telling both her and the coach when she was removed from the game with about 8-10 minutes left of the situation. We were up 25+ points at the time. I instead chose not to say anything. Obviously she never went back into the game and the record was not broken. Afterwards before both player and coach were able to see a stat sheet, I asked them how many points they thought she had…they guessed wrongly and I said you were one shy of tying the single-game record. They both said I should have told them and she could have gone back in. I responded by saying if you broke the record that way and 10 years from now the same thing happened and I told the player and coach and that player broke the record in a blowout after being taken out for good and then being re-inserted into the game wouldn’t you be upset? Both the player and the coach agreed and I followed with my feeling that records should be broken in the general flow of the game. Anything else is not really breaking a record but padding stats for selfish reasons.
There are so many other reasons I don’t agree with this including five players on the team playing 1 or less minute. What a great time to get some younger players some experience or reward players who put in the time at practice with some extended game action. I guess that’s not as important as a star player breaking a record. Had I been this player I think I would have removed myself from the game and told a freshman who battles me in practice each day to take my place. He deserved to score one basket (maybe the only one of his career) much more than I would have deserved a record in a game like that.
Sorry for the long winded post…looking forward to reading some other thoughts.
Hi Pat,
I won’t get into a long discussion with you or the other posters regards your comments on my son’s assist record. It is obvious that we think differently. I do have three points I would like to share with you and your readers:
1. We have set up game plans to break individual and team records for years. I can recall a game in the late 90’s when I was unhappy with our level of screening and told the players that we were going to see if we could break the record for ‘Most Individuals Making a Three-point Shot in a Single Game’. The plan was to rotate three groups of five and when you made a three-pointer, you became a screener in your group until everyone else in your group made one. We ended up setting an NCAA record by having 13 players connect, and, oh yeah, we beat a conference team on the road that was ahead of us in the standings, 103-73. The bonding that took place that night was fantastic. And our level of offensive execution was as good that night as it was the entire year- in large part because the players weren’t concentrating on ‘winning and losing’. Holding out records as a ‘carrot’ to players can be very motivating.
2. While I have set up a number of these game plans, I would never try to embarrass an opponent or opposing coach. As it relates to this past Saturday, anticipating that we may be the better team, I did confer with the North Central coach before the game. I will not tell you what was said, but I will tell you that the game was carried out in a sportsmanlike fashion. The two teams had nothing but positives to say to and about one another following the game.
3. Your listing my son’s minutes in previous games as proof that something sinister was going on is ridiculous. Like it or not, the game plan was to let two players remain at the offensive end of the court and see what happened. This did not require near as much energy as some of the other game plans we have implemented this year- thus they were able to play heavier minutes. I have done this in past years on a number of occasions.
Now I could probably go on and tell you why it isn’t as necessary for me to worry about developing players in these situations (I play more kids than any other coach in the country), or why it it silly to try to compare the performances of players when you didn’t see either game (You know, as evidenced by this past Saturday’s game, it is possible to have a great individual performance even when you are on the better team), but I think I’ll just stop here.
I’ll gladly accept attacks on my coaching style. But it really is unfair to put a negative spin on my son’s performance this past Saturday. He was just doing what he was told- and he did it quite well!
Since when is using facts in public evidence ridiculous? Come on now.
I guess I disagree with your very first item to its core. If you need David Arseneault to have 34 assists in order to win, I’m all for it. But not like this. I never will be. I don’t see how beating up on a lesser team at home is comparable to beating a team ahead of you on the road, either. They’re both examples of breaking a record, sure, but that’s it.
I wonder what the “gameplan” will be to do against Caltech in Grinnell’s next game. Maybe they can set the record for most shots taken behind half court. Imagine the team bonding that would take place while still respecting their opponent.
Well, at least Coach Arseneau responded, something that I’m not sure many coaches under scrutiny on this site would have done. I look forward to seeing Grinnell play in St. Louis next year, and if nothing else, their style of play has gotten the school more publicity over the years than other schools with far better records have received.
Interesting read…
Openly admitting that I’m more likely than most to give the benefit of the doubt here, perhaps it’s not quite as sinister as many are making it out to be.
As records go, an assist record seems less glory driven than most. His job was to get the ball to other players. He had to make game related decisions to get the ball to the open man, and the other players had to work to get open. Perhaps I’m enjoying an exercise in justification, but it seems less glory focused than an attempt to get a scoring record.
I think Coach A is right about the arguments on playing other players. These are a bit disingenuous. Grinnell has ten players averaging double digit minutes a game, three more who have more than 5 minutes a game, and 20 players that have seen game action. There isn’t a (non-‘system’) team out there that can make that kind of claim, so saying the minutes should have gone to other players rings a touch hollow.
Grinnell has 7 newbies this year and they collectively spend and average of 54 minutes a game on the floor; that means that, on average, there is at least 1 first year on the floor at all times, and that for 14 minutes of every game (on average) their are two on the floor. So let’s not play that card here.
Coach, I think you’re being a little oversensitive because it was your son out there.
I didn’t read anyone saying he should’ve stood up to his coach or anything. I think any of us who have watched a basketball game know the coach is in charge and makes the decision on something like that, especially after reading the quotes on how it was premeditated.
Grinnell plays a contrived, bastardized form of basketball which lends itself to contrived, bastardized individual and team records, and David Arseneault’s phony single-game assist record is yet another in a continuing series. Given the chance, Grinnell will try to have Arseneault break his own record against some other poor over-matched cupcake of an opponent. Coach Arseneault offers the usual excuses, justifications and explanations for his actions, and then typically tries to deflect Pat’s well-placed criticism by playing the “Don’t Pick On My Son” card. 34 assists makes for neat propaganda on the Grinnell web site, and deluded Grinnell fans may love it, but most of the rest of us think it’s pretty pathetic.
I think I have to side with Pat and co. on this issue. I really don’t understand the need to look over a schedule and target certain games that look like opportunities to break a record. I don’t see breaking records in a premeditated fashion as being within the spirit of the game. It just makes these records rather disingenuous to me…
OxyBob:
I understand criticizing the way Arsenault set the record, but I don’t get the vitriol toward the system as a whole. “Contrived and bastardized?” All offensive systems are contrived by coaches and, if it works, I don’t see the problem with running the System. It’s a different game plan to be certain, but I don’t think Coach Arsenault should be criticized for creativity.
I appreciate Coach Arsenault offering his perspective on the record. And I understand the sensitivity toward his son. Taking sports out of the equation, it’s tough to turn that off as a father.
Gordon Mann: >>I understand criticizing the way Arsenault set the record, but I don’t get the vitriol toward the system as a whole.
“Like it or not, the game plan was to let two players remain at the offensive end of the court and see what happened.”
sounds like great basketball to me, coach – how can anyone say that “the System” isn’t contrived and bastardized? (/sarcasm)
Gordon Mann: “I understand criticizing the way Arsenault set the record, but I don’t get the vitriol toward the system as a whole.” I agree with John Wooden that basketball is a game of defense, finesse, maneuverability and beauty. The game Grinnell plays has none of that. If you like that style, well, there’s no accounting for taste. I had my fill of the System watching Gary Smith employ it at Redlands with no great success. For my money, I’ll take the philosophy of the Wizard of Westwood over Coach Arseneault any day.
Hello Again Pat,
It’s a slow morning, so I think I will offer your readers a little more insight into my coaching thoughts. At the very least, I hope it provokes some additional thought. I think what you have done for DIII basketball is awesome and am happy to contribute to the interest in your sight in some small way.
On Wednesday evening, driving home from our Monmouth game, my thoughts turned to what to do as a game-plan for North Central. As an aside, I can tell you that North Central was only on our schedule because so many teams in the Midwest do not want to play us. They were not on my first, second or third list of schools I wanted to play as the possibility for an imbalanced score is not something I look forward to. But, we drive 54 hours on a bus for our 8 road league games and after striking out with DIII teams within a 4 hour radius of Grinnell, I decided to take advantage that there was a school willing to come to our gym without any reciprocation.
One of the concerns I have when playing teams that we are supposedly better than is that we usually have a couple of players among the national leaders in particular statistical categories. This is not so much a reflection that these players are the best in their respective areas, and I realize our ‘System’ does skew individual and team statistics, but there are several reasons why it makes sense for us to have players achieve statistically:
1. When our players achieve statistically, they oftentimes get their confidence levels up to a point where they elevate their games.
2. The press has been generous with us through the years and statistical anomalies have given us attention we would not otherwise have gotten, which has assisted us in recruiting better student-athletes.
3. Fans seem to enjoy watching our team because we play so fast-paced and there is the possibility of seeing something done on the court that has never been done before. This makes for non-sterile environments.
Anyways, back to how to handle games in which we are better than our opponent. One of my concerns in these games is that our best players will not have the chance to be as statistically significant. This can easily happen if the playing time becomes even more evenly divided or if lessor players take the opportunity to be more aggressive simply because they can. So, as a rule, I usually map out a game plan which emphasizes that our best players are more aggressive in the first half. This allows me the flexibility to tinker with the second half so as not to be unsportsmanlike- without having our better players suffer statistically.
Such was the case with our North Central game plan. I wanted both my son and John Grotberg, who are both among the national leaders in assists and scoring, respectively, to come out of the gate quickly. After the first ten minutes we had four different possible game plans to choose from. They covered all the possible bases- ranging from what to do if we were way ahead, to what to do if we were behind, to what to do if either John or David were having an off-night.
Now I am the first to admit that the way I think is very different than how many of you think. Our ‘System’ is predicated on achieving numbers. What motivates some of the players who come to our program is the chance to accrue numbers. Sometimes I actually feel like a WWF promoter, searching out new material to keep our players and fans interest. But over the course of a season, I think it is critical to our team’s success to keep our players individually motivated and confident. And, with all due respect to some of the teams and individuals whose records we have broken, I think it is my responsibility to cater to my own group’s needs. So, through the years I have learned not to be bound by a want to set records, yet not afraid to go after them when they are achievable.
If some of you want to sit in your ‘ivory towers’ and snub your nose at what we do, that’s absolutely your business. From where I sit, this is not the ‘black and white’ issue soem of you make it out to be.
Hope you and your readers have a wonderful holiday season. And thanks again for all you do for Division III basketball.
David Arseneault
Men’s Basketball Coach
Grinnell College
So correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that individual stats are more important than the team goals. Doesn’t nearly every team in the country have a game or two or three against an inferior team. It happens. We all play weak teams here and there. So what if a player doesn’t reach his scoring average in one game. Is that really a big deal especially if your team wins?
After reading your second post I am even more sick that you value individual performances and stats and keeping your players motivated for individual goals and numbers rather then meeting team goals.
I may be reading incorrectly but do team goals even make the second or third page of your goals for a season.
I just don’t get it. You are coaching a team sport with the ultimate goal of a team winning a conference championship and maybe a national championship someday and your creating game plans for a star player to not lower his scoring average or other stat average in one lousy game.
Are these valuable lessons to be teaching young people?
I can now check off one coach I will definitely not allow my son to ever play for if he is good enough for the college ranks.
i’d like to present a counter to a couple of your points – i hope you don’t take these comments personally:
“When our players achieve statistically, they oftentimes get their confidence levels up to a point where they elevate their games.” – could this same affect have been achieved without asking your pg to play almost double his season average in minutes against an obviously inferior team (so inferior that you beat them soundly playing 3 on 5)? could he have maintained his season apg average (or maybe even improved on it slightly) without playing 38 minutes? what type of affect do you think it might have had on your 2nd and 3rd pg’s had they been able to play more minutes than they normally do and “achieve statistically”…could that elevate their confidence levels and their game?
i don’t think anyone has a problem with players achieving statistical milestones, but when it’s done like this it just doesn’t seem as legit
“One of my concerns in these games is that our best players will not have the chance to be as statistically significant.” – isn’t this counter to the team nature of basketball? i’ve always been under the impression that the only statistic that mattered was winning %…
“What motivates some of the players who come to our program is the chance to accrue numbers. ” – do they want to accrue numbers at all cost, though? wouldn’t the opportunity to see some of their teammates accrue numbers be equally rewarding?
“Sometimes I actually feel like a WWF promoter, searching out new material to keep our players and fans interest.” – why not recruit players who are interested in playing basketball because, well, it’s basketball and it’s what they love to do – i don’t know any of your players, but i know they got admitted at grinnell, so they’re bright…i don’t think you’re giving them enough credit if you feel that you have to keep them interested by coming up with little games within the game against a team that you could beat handily with your 2nd and 3rd teamers (as evidenced by a 39 point victory in a game where you were playing 3 on 5, from the sound of things)
coach, i respect your right to do whatever you want in the games you schedule and motivate your team as you see fit…i’ve never coached a day of basketball, so i’m sure you’re in a much better place to make these judgements than i – i also hope you understand it when people debate the merits of the records your players accrue and the sportsmanship shown in the pursuit of these records, especially in cases like this (or the ‘most individuals making a three-point shot game’) when the record itself seems to be much more important than the result of the game
The assist record 100% depends on other players..he can make a great pass every time, if they dont hit, no assist.
That being said, it is what it is…the system is there, and it inflates stats…and Coach obviously attracts kids who want to be a part of that..someone made a coment about attracting different types of players…is there another style of play that can comfortably play 16-20 kids a night?
I’d be upset if there was a plan to have a kid score xx amount of points in a game, in a blowout.
I am a D3 assistant coach on the woman’s side..we had an all american last year who played 17-20 minutes in 4-5 games because they were blowouts and we knew they were going to be blowouts..that is sportmanship.
Coach Arsenault says:
“As an aside, I can tell you that North Central was only on our schedule because so many teams in the Midwest do not want to play us. They were not on my first, second or third list of schools I wanted to play as the possibility for an imbalanced score is not something I look forward to. But, we drive 54 hours on a bus for our 8 road league games and after striking out with DIII teams within a 4 hour radius of Grinnell, I decided to take advantage that there was a school willing to come to our gym without any reciprocation.”
emphasis added
Sitting here in my “ivory tower,” I think this is a very telling comment.
Ah well, I can see I wasn’t successful convincing some of you to embrace my way of thinking. May have even lost a recruit. At least I tried. Good luck to all.
I have leaned both ways on this situation. I do not think that Grinnell is unsportsmanlike at all. They had a chance to beat Monmouth by a hundred last Wednesday but instead went into a conservative offense and kept the score close. The score could have been whatever the Pioneers wanted it. Then some of the Monmouth players had the audacity to be mad at the end of the game when John Grotberg shot a 3 pointer at the buzzer saying “they were running up the score.”
The thing I dont like about this record is that I feel like I could do it to if my coach said that he wanted to get me this record before the game. I feel like I am an average D-III player who doesnt deserve to hold such a honorable record because I am just not the caliber of player that it takes to be to hold a record.
That being said I have all the respect in the world for Grinnell as well as Dave Jr. I am glad he didnt get hurt because I know if someone was doing that to my team, I would look for a spot to take a shot at him (hard screens, etc). Nothing injury threatening, but enough to ring his bell and let the coach rethink his strategy. If that makes me a dirty player than so be it but I would would not allow myself and my teammates be embarassed like that. (See: Tom Brady throwing the ball in the 4th quarter in every game this year.)
I cant wait to go and play in Darby for the final time of my career.
Well coach, no one can say you didn’t stand up to the criticism.
Indeed, and I do appreciate you weighing in.
“Fans seem to enjoy watching our team because we play so fast-paced and there is the possibility of seeing something done on the court that has never been done before. This makes for non-sterile environments.”
Yeah… Fans like the Harlem Globetrotters too!
YAWN… Let me know when Coach A gets his team to the final 4. I’ll go check out system ball then.
“YAWN… Let me know when Coach A gets his team to the final 4. I’ll go check out system ball then.”
So only 4 teams a year are worth watching? I figured since you took the time to register and post on here that you would be more of a basketball fan then that. Go back to your shell.
Yeah, let’s not have this deteriorate to a system bashing thread. It’s been done and over done on D3Hoops. Keep it on topic, folks.
When was the last time that happened in the Daily Dose, 86? I must’ve missed it if it was recent.
Coach A – I will say I am impressed and respect the fact you took the time to come on this blog and submit your opinion and position in this debate. You also did it with class, respect, and understanding of those who may disagree with you.
I took the time to read your side of this and then waited to reply while it sank in. While you seem to have your reasons, I simply find some of your statements sad about what the priorities are at Grinnel.
As a former collegiate athlete who has also coached, I can appreciate finding ways to motivate a team and finding goals for them on game-by-game and season basis. However, I still disagree with a couple of your tactics.
One of which was the fact you actually went to the opposing coach before the game and seemingly told him your plan! I’m sorry, but if I had been that coach – who was willing to come to your school when apparently no one else would – I would have been infuriated! Not only are you openly telling me you don’t think my team has a chance, you then decide to rub the fact in my face by saying your team plans to go for a couple of individual records during the game. Then, to add insult to injury, you feel it necessary to keep two guys on the offensive side of the court (Alex, I will take “Women’s rules in the 50’s” for 100, please!) and only put three guys on defense.
If I was the coach, or many that I know, you might have been in for some rough treatment. I don’t believe in dirty play, either, but those screens might have been harder and I might have just left two guys back on defense to keep your two “record-orientated” players from touching the ball. Does that sound like fun?
And I am a FIRM believer in team orientated goals – especially in a TEAM sport. And I would have been very ticked-off if a coach had ever told me that despite our team work and goals, they would be put to the side so that one guy on the team could break a record – probably unattainable in the normal run of a game and without me sacraficing what I and the team does normally to achieve success.
I would be thrilled for a teammate if he or she was able to set a record during a game… but I think the “fun” of it is removed if I knew that was the goal going in.
I also want anyone to know who is playing my team that they will be treated sportsmanlike and with class. Not wondering if my team will be classless and only care about abusing my team for personal reasons.
Hey, D-Mac — it’s Iowa. They played those girls basketball rules there into the 1980s!
If the system is bastardized than really all of basketball is bastardized. Sports like everything else change as time goes on. It is not the same game as Dr. Naismith created. It is not the same game that George Mikan played (added that bastardized shot clock). Not the same game Red Auerbach coached. Not the same game John Wooden coached. The game has evolved and Coach A has a system that works for his program.
Nobody like the shotgun when Landry started to use it, now everyone uses it on all levels.
“So only 4 teams a year are worth watching? I figured since you took the time to register and post on here that you would be more of a basketball fan then that. Go back to your shell.”
You missed the point!
I think Coach A is running an ego driven sideshow. I’ll continue to follow good BASKETBALL all season elsewhere.
If/when he gets his team to do more than win his league 3 times in 11 years, and take them to the next level, maybe then I’ll go watch…
Systemfan86,
Actually distributed minutes is much more prevalent than you think.
Mississippi College, a “decidedly non-system team”, had 11 players with double digit minutes (highest were 20.9 and 20.1) plus 2 more players getting 6.9 and 6.4 among the 13 players who played at least 29 games in the 2006 season.
In 2007, Miss College had 9 players with > 10 minutes, and a 10th with 9.9 minutes. In 2008, Miss College has begun with 10 players getting 9.8 to 24.8 minutes.
In 2007, McMurry (ASC-West co-champ) had 13 players getting 8.2 minutes or more per game. In 2006, McMurry (ASC-West Tri-champ) had ten players getting 11.7 and 29.9 minutes (The 11.7 min/game guy was the three-point gunner off the bench and averaged 8.2 points per game.)
In 2007, a traditional post-up team such as UMHB (ASC-West Co-champ) had 8 players with double-digit minutes and 3 more with > 8 mpg.
That is just one conference. I think that the goal of most coaches with good teams is to go 10-12 deep on the team. You never who will catch fire that night, and hot hands are valuable.
Blaise4 says, “They had a chance to beat Monmouth by a hundred last Wednesday but instead went into a conservative offense and kept the score close. The score could have been whatever the Pioneers wanted it. Then some of the Monmouth players had the audacity to be mad at the end of the game [b]when John Grotberg shot a 3 pointer at the buzzer saying[/b] “they were running up the score.” ”
Isn’t the sportsman-like thing to do when your team is comfortably ahead at the end of the game with the shot clock off to just hold the ball and allow the clock to run out??? Maybe I could understand if the guy taking the shot at the end of the game was the last kid on the bench. But, even that’s stretching it. But the fact that it was Grinnell’s leading scorer??? I would have been a little pissed off too if I were Monmouth. I don’t care if Grinnell did them a favor by not running it up on them by more than they actually did. The fact is, Grotberg should have done the sportsman-like thing and hold the ball. But, instead, as we have already been made well aware by Coach Arsenault, it seems that padding stats in any way, shape or form seems to outweigh winning with class?!
Also, good point David about the scheduling issues Grinnell has. I’m sure incidents like Grotberg hoisting a 3 at the buzzer of a 20 point game has nothing to do with why no one wants to play Grinnell?!
obviously the grinnell administration is fully behind coach arseneau, as well – the story, in all it’s pre-determined glory, takes up about 80% of the college home page…
Regarding minutes, I remember one game where Joe Haklin was coaching Kalamazoo and he had all 14 players he brought to Wabash in the game in the first 10 minutes, and he definitely didn’t run ‘the system’.
Coach A- Don’t let any of these hatters get to you. Your running a hell of a system over there and are getting W’s in the process. Everyone has to give credit were credit is due, to the players. Grotberg and Dave Jr. are excellent athletes who would thrive in any system, even the big boy Chamerblain has some serious talent. (Not to mention ‘Ya Boy’ Joe Fox) I’m looking forward to watching your guys play in the near future.
PS- Coleman should catch a game as well.
Hatters? I’ve been known to be angry but I’m not mad. Not that way anyway. 🙂
Mike – Pat has caught a game, as have I, and many others in D3… hard not to when they were live on ESPN two seasons ago!
Though Grinnel certainly seems to be a better team now!
As someone who has actually seen North Central play this year and studied the box score I thought it worthwhile to point out that North Central was winning after the first 10 minutes of play. This seems to be a bit of a down year for North Central, but they still get out there and compete with pride. They definitely did not have the sort of depth that Grinnell has in the end and it hurt them.
The first game of the year for North Central resulted in a 95-49 loss to Northwestern, and trust me, it could have been worse. They’ve made significant strides and have shown great improvement. Don’t spend time pitying them. They can play ball. –by the way, I disagree heartily with Pat’s proclamation about the UMAC being the worst d3 conference in the nation-
all that said–players win the games- not systems or coaches. Grinnell has been able to attract a lot of talented players over the years and were able to use their superior depth well to beat North Central. If these talented players for Grinnell played under a different system that emphasizes team goals and defense a bit more, they might be more successful.
This isn’t a barry bonds record-breaking steriods scandal. If it’s within the rules, Grinnell and the Arsenaults should be congratulated for breaking records.
I said “probably” the worst.
The UMAC is 4-5 versus the MIAC so far this season with 5 of the games and 3 of the wins coming by way of teams picked to finish 4th or lower in the UMAC. My boys over at Northwestern are 10-0 against MIAC teams in the past couple of years. Look out world. Here comes the UMAC.
Maybe if North Central were to start a football program in the next couple years they might get in to one of the best conferences in the nation soon.
I don’t think the WIAC is looking for more teams.
What a fascinating rant of self-proclaimed experts on basketball ethics. The record set was for ASSISTS!! This is the one category in which a players UNSELFISHNESS and DEDICATION TO HIS TEAMMATES is recorded. Grinnell did NOT run up the score. The score 151-112 is a difference of 39 points, in the setting of mid-hundreds, a point ratio of 0.74. NCUM played more basketball, and accomplished more game experience than they had all year. Where was the Pat Coleman outrage when UW-Platteville beat Beloit 75-23 on Nov 16, a 52 point difference and a point ratio of 0.31? Nowhere!! Instead from him we get special, personal blogs of selected players he is pushing on his website. Where is the ethics of that??
Coach A has created an entire form of the game now known as “The System”. He is an innovator, a maverick. Others through history have also paid a price for exploring new realms of possibilities and thwarting the status quo. Christopher Columbus was put into prison by the King of Spain, because Ferdinand was displeased. Pat Coleman, take off your self-ascribed crown. You make a poor King.
I have read these posts with great interest, and it is intriguing to see folks saying that their vision for basketball is the only true one. That kind of thinking would set the game back years as someone pointed out. Coach Arsenault was great to come on here and give his reasons for what he does. Last year, I heard an interview with Coach A regarding the System, and he said that the reason that he created it was to give his players something to be excited about after the game. Recruiting to Grinnell will always be a challenge due to its location and academic standards. Trust me on that one.
The idea of taking a huge risk as a coach to do something different so that his players could have some fun is almost unheard of in this day and age. The idea that people won’t play Grinnell because they are unsportsmanlike is just not true. Their style is so different that you can’t prepare for it, and the game that you play immediately after you play them becomes a tough one to prep for. That is a compliment to the program, not a disrespect of the people in it.
I have met both father and son Arsenault in my travels and they are polite and thoughtful people. The System is not evil and the USA will not collapse because of it. It is a choice that a coach has made to play in a certain way. Before the shot clock, you had a lot of coaches running a slow-down boring game, and no one accused them of killing the game. This is a way of playing that is not for everyone but that doesn’t make it “not basketball.”
It really is sad that the word “vitriol” showed up on a Division III basketball discussion.
hoopdreams: I don’t recall Platteville trumpeting a record set in that game or playing a player 38 minutes solely to achieve a personal record. Spare us the spin and join us in what we’re really discussing.
http://www.uwplatt.edu/athletics/basketball/mens/0708/stats/2008m-1.htm
Show me who played 38 minutes. Nobody in that game you throw out there did anything like playing 38 minutes, racking up 34 assists or scoring a third of his team’s points.
As a former player who played against Grinnell’s system, I think you must understand “the system”. It is undeniable for players to have career nights whether for Grinnell or against them. We had talked before our games with them about players on our teams scoring 30, 40, 50+ points. It goes both ways.
Also, let me tell you that against “the system” no lead is ever secure. Grinnell must live and die by the 3. You are not out of the game by being down 20-30 points at half. We did it and ended up coming back.
We had a philosophy against Grinnell and we did not abandon it. I will not reveal what it is, but lets just say that by looking at North Central’s box score, they did not have the right approach.
Coach A, your system is unique and difficult to prepare for. As different and unusual as it is, it can be very fun to watch and play. We had to abandon all our concepts to adjust to your style. Our scout team in practice loved preparing for your game though. haha. I think that those that are posting negatively about this is basically because it was your son. I dont think it would have been a issue if it was Steve Wood, but thats my opinion. As I do every year, I plan on coming to see your games when you come into the area.
I can’t speak for commenters but I would have written the same post if it were Steve Wood or Ken Heiser or whomever.
Pat: How regal, to let us know that you are keeping track of ALL playing time around the league. Coaches clearly need to check your website for their moral guidance. “Would Pat approve of this?” I can hear the coaches trembling. For all you know, the coach of NCUM wanted to play Grinnell so his players could improve on their personal scoring averages!! That is the general trend in system basketball for opponents. What?? You mean they may NOT be a victim?? Oh…you didn’t consider that?? Here is another one to ponder: it just could be that the Grinnell TEAM considers the personal record of assists as a TEAM accomplishment. Wow, more reality to ruffle your feathers. YOU want basketball to proceed by YOUR vision, and not anyone else’s. It is so difficult to be the King. Your subjects just don’t cooperate like they used to.
HoopDreams you clearly miss the point here. Perhaps you should kill the personal attacks on Pat and concentrate on the posts instead.
Here’s a hint to people. Using more than one question mark or exclamation point, typing in all caps, just makes you look psychotic. It doesn’t help the conversation.
So when you’re done on your high horse come join the real topic. Is it right to make a mockery of the record book at the expense of a poor team? Is the 34 assist count even accurate? I wonder if the NCAA has reviewed the film.
diego says: “I think that those that are posting negatively about this is basically because it was your son.”
The fact that it was Arsenault’s son has absolutley NOTING to do with why I feel the way I do. It’s the fact that Arsenault played his starting PG 38 minutes (almost double that starting PG’s average minutes per game) for the sole purpose of breaking a record! And in a game that was out of reach to say the least.
As others have touched on in here and elswhere thoughout the pages of Posting Up, maybe if this feat would have been accomplished in a game that may have been more competive or had more meaning like a conference game with 1st place on the line or an NCAA tournament game, I doubt this would have been an issue. It is for this reason that I look at most records that have Grinnell attached to them in the NCAA record books with a grain of salt! This is because they were more than likely also pre-meditated against a vastly inferior team!
One question I have is why not play the kid the full 40 minutes? Maybe he could have cracked the 40 assist mark and then he could say that he averaged an assist/minute?!