There seems to be a large misunderstanding about what certain types of stats are… and are not. And there certainly are a fair share of people who think it’s their way… or the highway.
Now, before I go much further, let me say: I do understand that stats are primarily taken by a few student workers for the sports information offices on college campuses. I understand that they may not be completely up to date on the nuances of stat taking. And I understand that sometimes giving certain stats is something of an opinion on certain plays.
Now, I have been to my fair share of games and in many arenas; I have sat next to my fair share of “stat takers”; and I have worked in a sports information office for several years, so I have gotten very familiar with how stats should be given… or not given. And I am tired of those who simply don’t know how to take accurate stats… even with the new high-tech automated computer programs that pretty much keep up with the pace of play.
My pet-peeves when it comes to stats: assists, turnovers, and steals. It seems no one completely understands what some of these are.
For example, at one game I overheard one group of sports information employees as they kept stats for a game on computer. They kept having an argument about what an assist was, if it was a turnover, who got the steal, and who the rebound went to… it almost drove me out of my mind.
Picture the scene. There is one guy punching away at a computer, so he isn’t really watching the game… he “trusts” the two others to call out the game. The guy on his right seems to have a very good idea how to call the game and call out the right stats. The guy on the left… CLUELESS!!!
He never thought there as an assist on ANY made basket.
He sometimes would give the guy trying to receive a horrible pass… the turnover.
And he kept crediting the steal to the guy who ended up with the ball.
This resulted in the competent one on the right, trying to correct mistakes all night long. It led to fixing mistakes during timeout. (They got most of the mistakes and I wasn’t too disappointed in the final numbers).
It was killing me! This one guy simply didn’t know what he was talking about and upon talking with the other two guys later… he seemed to refuse to learn!
So, I am going to go through these pet-peeves of mine and maybe wake some people up out there.
Assists – By definition: A player is credited with an assist when the player makes the principal pass contributing directly to a field goal. Such a pass should be either (a) a pass that finds a player free after he or she has maneuvered without the ball for a positional advantage, or (b) a pass that gives the receiving player a positional advantage he or she otherwise would not have had.
Ok… this can sometimes be tough, I know. But, if a player is passed the ball and he or she immediately shoots and scores… you better give an assist.
On a break-a-way… and the shooter gets the ball and doesn’t take more than a couple of dribbles or make a move to get around a defender… there better be an assist coming.
And on an alley-oop… you better not even try and argue with me there wasn’t an assist on that play.
Now, here are some assists that are given… that clearly should not.
The pass goes inside to the post-player. He or she then hesitates, fakes a move to the inside before spinning to the baseline, shoots, and scores. I don’t care what argument you try and make… no assist.
Another situation: long outlet pass up the court, the player starts to dribble and drives to the lane. But, before shooting, the played has to go for the reverse lay-up to avoid the defender. Forget about an assist.
And finally, the pass is tipped a couple of times before getting to a player who shoots and scores… good luck convincing me the passer meant to have it go off three hands before arriving in a teammates hands.
In almost all of these situations, the eventual shooter had to do something to create their shot (in the final one, its amazing the ball got to them through traffic). If a shooter is the one creating the opportunity to shot… then there was no actual assist from someone else.
Turnovers – By definition: The purpose of a turnover is to reflect statistically the times in which a team was given the ball and should have gotten some kind of shot but, before it could get any kind of shot, made some type of mistake that turned the ball over to the opponent.
Sounds simple… but many people get confused who to give the turnover to.
It’s quite simple… the one that messed up!
If I have the ball and I lose it… I should be charged with the turnover. Simple, right?
Apparently not… and it really drives me nuts.
If I am passing the ball to my post-player, and I throw the ball in a place he or she has to make an effort to reach for it and the defender takes it or deflects to a teammate: I should be charged with the turnover, not the player trying to receive the ball. I am the one responsible to get it to him safely. There are some who want to blame the receiving party… but he or she can’t be held responsible for my bad pass.
Steals – By definition: A steal is credited to a player when the player’s positive, aggressive action(s), which includes contact with the ball, causes a turnover by an opponent.
The guy I described above never got this right.
Imagine the following scenario:
The offensive player is dribbling the ball on the wing, inside the three-point line, and with his back to the baseline. His defender is able to hit the ball from behind – CLEANLY – and the ball flies loose… ending up in the hands of another defender. Do you know how many times I have heard people give the steal to the defender who ended up with the ball? Let me ask a simple question: who caused the ball to end up in that defender’s hands? The original defender… so thus, he or she deserves the steal!
Assists, turnovers, and steals are either inflated or not given enough. I just don’t get how there can be people who think everything is an assist or steal… or the opposite; thinking nothing is an assist or steal.
Yes, they happen.
No, they don’t happen on every play.
Yes, you should give credit where credit it due.
No, don’t just add an assist or steal… because it looks good.
No statistician is going to give a player a basket just because they were on the court. So why should they be giving steals and assists away as if they were candy.
These are hard earned statistics and for those people out there who inflate or don’t give enough, you are only cheating the game and the players.
Oh, the gift assists and steals really make me mad as well. It was actually worse when I worked as the head of the stats crew for an old IHL and CHL team. Players called up to the crew and BEGGED us for assists.
At Wabash, I run the computer so our SID can do SID things. I make sure that there are no gift assists, but I do know some schools who are more ‘liberal’ than others – so they look funny when their PG has only three assists at our place when he normally gets six or seven.
i dont know how well our stat keeping is since i have to pay attention to the video camera since i film Lynchburg’s games, but I do know that we have a student help the SID with that stat keeping. I know that for the men’s games we normally have one of the women’s basketball players helps out. Maybe i’ll be able to learn more about how our stat keeping is handled next year when I’m interning in the SID office.
When I look at credentials for All-American candidates I usually look at the player’s road stats. Sometimes it’s a real eye-opener.
I would say, too, this happens with tackles in football.
You are right when saying that some schools have no business putting some of the people behind the computer that they do. But as a person who takes the computer stats myself, I also would like to point out that there are some of us out there who take great pride in getting it right the first time.
Personally, I read over the little rule book the NCAA sends out before the season and if I have a question about an assist or a turnover or a rebound, I make sure I get it right.
I think to often people forget some of the reasons we do this. Sure, its to provide accurate information to coaches, the NCAA, fans, and the media. But its also, in some way, for the kids. They hustle their butts off and play hard. And even if its not supposed to be about the stats, I think it makes the kids feel special when they see they had those few rebounds or that steal. And a turnover to them might be a personal insult.
Now, its not a big deal for the kids who score 20 a night and pull down 9 a game, but for those role players, it means a whole heck of a lot. We not only owe it to them, but to ourselves to do the best job possible. Anything else just isnt fair to the kids(without whom we would be watching an empty court).
So before every game, as the teams are warming up and I am sitting in front of my computer, I think about those kids that I see every day and try to do my job for them. Yea its great that a box score gets in the paper or that a fan can look up how their favorite team did. But I like to think that the whole part of being at a college is to be there as support staff for the kids. If I can be there for them by doing my job the best way possible, then thats what I’m going to do.
So I would agree that some people dont have that in mind when they sit down at that table. Some people are there to put in their time and then go home, or go back to their dorm. Thats a shame. When you agree to do this work, you know your in for late nights. If any student worker can deal with that, find someone who will.
Pat –
You’re so right it happens in football. Just remember the Gunn brothers at Earlham. You don’t get an assist by just jumping on the pile, people!
So, by definition, if a turnover occurs, does that automatically mean a steal occurred or vice versa? Probably not…since I could just dribble the ball off my foot and it’d be a turnover but no one gets credited with a steal. But, does a turnover occur if there is a steal? Probably?
I’m glad I don’t do any stats, I’d hate for the guy behind me to curse at me underneath his breath everytime there was a possible assist, turnover or steal! 🙂
Old School, In the second case, yes…There cannot be a steal without a turnover first occuring, since a steal is the end result of a turnover caused by the opposition. If no steal is awarded, chances are the origin of the turnover was not a direct result of the defense (i.e. if you dribble it off your foot, pass the ball into the crowd, or double dribble).
I personally would like to see the person who draws a charge (offensive fouls are turnovers) credited with something…not sure if a steal is the appropriate reward, but it’s the little things like the ability to draw a charge that do not show up in box scores.
You’ll always have controversy as long as home school personnel are doing anything related to stats.
I think they should change some rules and have new stat programs that allow for giving a half steal or half assist on plays.
Just like when a player tips it from behind to another player, the player tipping the ball gets the steal, but the other player doesn’t get recognized for being in the right place. They both should get a half steal. Or on an assist when a guard makes a great pass to a post player on one side of the paint and he tips it to the other side for a wide open layup or dunk. I know it’s stretching it but why shouldn’t the guard get at least a half assist on that play for setting it up. I know on the assists some stat crews would take that too far and hand out assists to whomever, but it’s worth looking at.
dballa,
why no the hockey assist where they can give an assist to the person who makes the pass that leads to the pass that causes a bucket to be scored? You know, 2 assists on one score!
I just feel if football can have a half tackle or half sack why can’t basketball players get that same credit on an assist or steal. Like on an interception thats deflected, the player who breaks up the play gets credit for breaking up the pass then the guy that catches the ball gets the interception. Why can’t it work the same way for a steal in basketball where both players get credit for it…
One pet peeve of mine… when you don’t get an assist because the scorer “changed directions” or “made a move” after receeiving the pass.
For example, if he catches a pass fading to the corner then immediately drives middle after receving the pass. Or, if a player posting up (not on the d3 board, but in the paint) catches a ball moving towards the baseline and then immediatedly spins middle to score. In both instances the pass gave the player the “positional advantage” to make a move to score.
In Dmac’s example the keyword is that the scorer “hesistated” then made a move. As long as that player moves immediately I would argue that a scorer could change direction even 2, maybe even 3 times and still warrant a credited assist because the pass got his defender moving and gave him a positional advantage.
Many stat keepers won’t give the assist if the player makes a move of his own or changes directions. I feel according to the rules d-mac listed, they are wrong.
My two favorite stories on this topic:
Two assists on one basket: I was running scorebaord next to an experience PA guy who I thought would know better. The home team beautifully broke the press which led to two crisp passes and a big alley-oop dunk. He wildly signaled to the table “TWO ASSISTS! TWO ASSISTS” and made the PA announcement as such. I asked him what on earth he was talking about. He said, “As long as the ball never touches the floor, you can award two assists.” The bookkeeper and I nearly fell out of our chair laughing at him, and he was MAD! He said he’d bring his stats manual next week. The next week he sat down next to us and sheepishly said, “I guess you guys were right on the assist thing.”
Assist on Free Throws: I have heard this from multiple people, usually players. It goes, “if I make a pass and the guy is fouled in the act of shooting, I get an assist if he makes both of his free throws.” If any of you think this, please stop.
Scottie – Having done basketball stats, it can be very tough to pick out one assist on a basket, much less two.
Sometimes you have to wonder what game the stats people are watching. Recently we had a game in which a player was credited with playing 9 minutes, going 0-2 from the floor, securing a rebound and turning the ball over twice. The only problem was that the player wasn’t even in uniform that night due to injury.
In the same game another player was credited with playing 3 minutes and she never left the bench.
As the official scorer I can’t tell you how many times I have a player scoring so many points in the book and the stats people have them scoring something different.
All of this and more is the reason that our coaching staff recalcuates the stats using the game film and keeps their own records.
It isn’t an easy job, granted, but it’s easy enough that players not in uniform shouldn’t be getting numbers.
“Just like when a player tips it from behind to another player, the player tipping the ball gets the steal, but the other player doesn’t get recognized for being in the right place. They both should get a half steal.”
Seriously?! No way. It would be hard to argue that (a) the defender purposely tipped the ball to his teammate, or (b) the person who happened to pick up or catch the ball should get any credit for a job he didn’t even have to move to do.
This isn’t like football where when one guy tips the ball and the other defender catches it, he gets the interception. In football, that defender got to the ball before it hit the ground. He made an effort to intercept it, despite the tip. In basketball, that tip could roll all over the court before it’s picked up. No one gets half a steal for picking the ball up.
“Or on an assist when a guard makes a great pass to a post player on one side of the paint and he tips it to the other side for a wide open layup or dunk.”
You can actually give an assist to a person who wasn’t the last pass… but it’s a very rare occasion. Tough not to credit the one who made the last pass.
“You know, 2 assists on one score!”
It ridiculous in hockey (and the only way goalies usually get assists) and, being a former collegiate soccer player myself, insulting in soccer. Good luck trying to convince me that the person who made the first of the two passes… knew it was going to get to another player for a basket. That’s like saying in soccer, the guy who crossed the ball from the corner meant to have it stopped by a teammate and then passed to the corner for another scoring chance.
“Many stat keepers won’t give the assist if the player makes a move of his own or changes directions. I feel according to the rules d-mac listed, they are wrong.”
Don’t get my description confused… even if that post player didn’t “hesitate” there is no assist. Read the following from the NCAA manual on stats:
“Adams passes to Allen, who (a) in the same motion with which Allen receives the pass shoots a hook shot and scores or (b) turns around and falls away as he or she shoots and scores. RULING: In (a) give Adams the assist. In (b), since it appears that Allen had to make a move to work free, do not credit Adams with an assist.”
Its pretty plain to see. If the shooter has to make any kind of move to avoid a defender and get himself in a better shooting situation – after the pass – then there is no assist.
Yes, and please stop on the “he made both free throws” arguement for an assist. Yes, he made both free throws because he missed the basket after you gave him the ball. Unless you are the actual ref who tosses him the ball before the free throws… no assist.
No half assists… half steals… two assists… multiple steals.
Oh… in case you want to check out the NCAA Stats Guide… here is a link:
http://www.ncaa.org/library/statistical/basketball_stats_manual/2005/2005_basketball_stats.pdf
Badgerwarhawk, sometimes that can be because a school provides an inaccurate roster and someone is wearing a different number than the roster says he should be.
Of course, it can also be because someone typed 33 instead of 22 for the stat in question. 🙂
Badgerhawk –
We always compare the book with the official stats. It’s our modus operandi, and I think you should insist on it.
Someone in Albion tonight loves assists(or otherwise Hope & Albion are just assisting machines):
1st half
Hope 9 FGM; 7 assists
Albion 18 FGM; 16 assists
That’s understandable Pat but in this instance both players were on our team and the roster is correct. I just couldn’t understand how they could make the same mistake repeatedly.
Last night I had 79 on the scoreboard, the scorer had 77 in the player’s column but 79 on the running score. The stats crew had 80. I wasn’t on the book so I just left them to sort it out. Maybe the flipped a coin. :);)
I agree with all points above but one … why would you not give an assist for a pass leading to the 2 shot foul for being fouled while shooting (the pass led to the shot). The assist rewards a passer for making the pass that leads directly to two points – why MUST the points come from a “field goal”? And obviously, no assist if it doesn’t lead to two points, be it a blown layup or missed free throws. The comment about no assist because the shooter “missed” isn’t fair – the shooter can’t make a shot laying on his back
From the NCAA statistical manual regarding assists after a foul…
A . R . 9 . Adams passes to Allen in a situation that normally wou l d wa r rant an assist but does not produce a field goal because (a) there
is defe n s i ve goaltending or defe n s i ve basket interfe r e n c e, (b) Allen is fouled in the act of shooting, or (c) Allen trave l s, fumbles the pass out of bounds or has the shot bl o cke d . RU L I N G : In (a), there will be an awarded score, so credit Adams with an assist. In (b) and (c), no assist will be awa r d e d .
well, not the first thing the NCAA has said that doesn’t make sense to me – Thanks tho – I guess I’m defeated..
Hopefan –
It’s not just the NCAA. That’s the rule for all of basketball.
The other thing about a foul shot getting an assist. If the player was fouled then either (a) the player did not have a positional advantage before the pass was made, or (b) the pass didn’t create a positional advantage.
Also… the person didn’t make the shot. Yes, the pass was nice and they had an opportunity, but you don’t hand out assists to “almost” made shots. What happens if they guy sucks on the free throw line and only makes one… should we hand out “half” an assist?
D-Mac, that’s your logic, but I still disagree – let me put it this way… if I receive a pass that should have led to me making a hoop, and the passer gaining an assist, but I don’t make the hoop BECAUSE I was fouled, and I make the two free throws, contrary to the rules that smedindy says are the rules of basketball, I believe an assist is merited. The passer has acheived everyting he set out for– that is, generating 2 points for his team directly as a result of his pass.
You could be in the position to make a shot and still get fouled…
Often times fouls occur because the offensive player does get into good position, so the defensive player has to foul to recover on the defense to prevent the offensive player from getting an easy two points.