Ok… I want to start this rant with my congratulations to the University of Puget Sound Loggers and the Carnegie Mellon University Tartans. They both got recent wins over Division I opponents (University of California – Riverside and Princeton respectively). It was the first victories for D3 schools over D1 teams in a year. And as a Division III program, it certainly looked impressive (especially on an ESPN crawl).
But… that’s it! They didn’t even count!
In the grand scheme that is everything Division III, a game against a Division I opponent means as much as a game against a high school squad. It’s the same as if you played the game in the pre-season. And it doesn’t matter if you play the game in the first week of the season, half-way through the season, or at the end of the season… the game doesn’t count.
Period!
Sure, you can have your record indicate the game (win or lose), but for everyone else… and those who matter in Division III… it’s just erased.
The game is a wasted date on a schedule. It doesn’t count towards your overall Division III record; it doesn’t count towards your regional record; and it won’t help you get into the NCAA Championship Tournament.
Teams that schedule Division I opponents have nothing to gain… and everything to lose.
If you win the game, sure people talk about it. But if you need a Pool B or C bid at the end of the season, that win won’t help you. There won’t be any comments of “well, we should include Carnegie-Mellon because they beat Princeton” on the Selection Committee’s conference call at the end of February. If the comment was there, someone is sure to add “yeah, but they lost to Bluffton University. You know… the team from Ohio.”
I have heard almost every argument to keep scheduling Division I opponents. It’s a great recruiting tool; it allows our players to have their parents attend a game; there is money in it for our program. None of these are a good reason to play the game.
How is it a great recruiting tool? I can’t imagine a recruit telling people he rather go to Catholic University than another school, because CUA losses every year to American. Is the recruiting tool that a coach can guarantee a player at least one game he is going to play in… because the game will be out of hand at some point, so everyone on the bench will play? Your recruiting tool should be the fact you schedule the toughest Division III schedule possible. And because of it, the program is looked at as a top D3 team and a perennial pick for the post-season.
How does the argument that parents attending a game work? I heard one program argue a few years back that when they traveled to New Jersey to play a D1 opponent, it was great for the parents of the players who might not get to a game normally. Again, I would like to point out I don’t know how a parent can say with a straight face they were glad to see their son play against a team they didn’t have a chance beating. How about telling the parents, instead of Princeton… we’ll make sure to schedule Ramapo College so that you can see us play some of the best basketball in the region… against one of the best teams in the region.
And money?! I understand most schools have trouble financing their programs… but the good teams are the ones scheduling these games and the good teams are certainly not the ones struggling financially. This isn’t the Coppin State University men’s program (Division I, by the way) that takes a yearly trip around the nation playing programs much better than them to get money to help pay the bills (though, they are known to pull a few upsets).
Coppin State isn’t getting into the NCAA Tournament unless they win their conference. So, losing those games really doesn’t hurt them.
Puget Sound, Carnegie Mellon, Catholic and many of the others have a very good chance of getting into the NCAA Tournament without winning their conferences. But, they are shooting themselves in the foot scheduling Division I games in season.
Instead of scheduling a Division I opponent… why not schedule another regional game against whoever they want. They could choose an easy team… or a tough team. Either of those will have some weight on the Selection Committee. The easy team – an extra regional win. The tough team, a win gets them more notice and a stronger schedule… and an extra regional win.
So, stop with the “we’re playing a Division I team tonight” or “wow, we beat a Division I team tonight.” Great! Good for you! It must have been cool to be at that game!
Now tell me… how exactly did it help your season or your post-season chances?
Are we seriously going to discuss this again? This would be the third blog post on the same subject.
Here we go again.
Couple quick thoughts…
1) D1 games do not help in the tournament selection process, but they do not HURT either. Let’s say Puget Sound schedules UW-Oshkosh instead of UC-Riverside, and they lose. That hurts the in-region winning % and the QOWI quite a bit. Isn’t playing a D1 a “free” chance to play a good team and get better (assuming the game has a chance to be competitive, like UPS vs UC-Riverside and CMU vs Princeton)?
2) Dave, the main point of your rants seems to be that these games “didn’t even count!” Well, here are some D3 vs D3 games from the holidays that “didn’t even count’…
#1 IWU vs #5 Puget Sound
#6 Albion vs #15 Elmhurst
#11 UW-Stout vs #13 Augustana
What the heck is the difference?
A D3 vs D3 game that will be played this evening that “doesn’t even count”…
8-0 Amherst (Northeast) @ 8-1 Occidental (West)
Just let Dave rant. It’s his first show in a few weeks. But that doesn’t mean we have to dreg up the whole conversation again.
My point is pretty simple on this one…
If you want to argue Coach C’s position that “we are prostituting ourselves” by playing D1’s that is fine. Or smedindy’s that that games are rarely ever competitive, that is fine too. Those are good debates. But to suggest that games vs D1’s shouldn’t be played because “they don’t count” just doesn’t hold water when we’re living with a system that doesn’t “count” games vs fellow D3’s (out of region).
Most of those games mention in Division III… will count next year! Holiday Tournaments will be counted as regional games… no matter who you play.
So… next year and on… they do count… and D1 games still won’t count.
For an outsider to tell a coach what is best for his or her program seems foolish. Not all D1 vs D3 games are created equal. At the end of the year are you going to tell me that IWU was hurt by using a regular season game vs Illinois? I think they will end up just fine.
I know Trinity (TX) wasn’t hurt by playing Texas A&M last year year. What D3 opponent could they have played within 3 hours of San Antonio that would give them the competition that TAMU did? Still ended up the second best team in the nation behind UW-SP.
In fact the TAMU game last year and the TAMU-Corpus Christi game this year helped fund two out of state tournaments that they are attending this year (normally it is just one). The Virginia Wesleyan Tourney, which will pay off greatly if Trinity ends up in the tourney mix, and a trip to Springfield which as Q so correctly pointed out will count just as much as the D1 games.
“For an outside to tell a coach what is best of his or her program seems foolish”.
Do you watch College GameDay, College GameNight, or any other analyst show (even NFL Live, Baseball Tonight)? Then you see and hear those guys do the very same thing.
I am not telling any coach what they should or shouldn’t do. I am simply expressing an opinion that I think scheduling Division I games is not worth it. I understand your arguement about money, and for a team that has no one around them… sure. But for a vast majority of schools… I simply don’t think it is worth the game or the time.
It’s not always about what the Coach or A.D. wants. Sometimes it’s what the administration dictates. For example, school A had the opportunity to play in a nice out of state tournament, it would have been a great trip and the school had more than enough in it’s budget to afford it, but the administration said no. Get a D1 game to offset the cost. School A couldn’t get a D1 game on such short notice that year so they didn’t go anywhere.
Such trips contradicted the standards of academic snobbery set forth by this partucular institution, but if there was going to be a check involved, the administration was fine with it.
I think if schools want to play D1s, for whatever reason, that’s fine. But they shouldn’t sacrifice their in region schedule to do it. Unfortunately if you’re west of the Mississippi, you may have no choice but to play a D1 game or two in order to fill out your schedule.
…And when those “analysts” on College GameDay, College GameNight or any other show make sweeping statements trying to attach rules where rules don’t apply I think they are crazy. My second sentence was “not all D1 vs D3 games are created equal.”
You ended your rant by stating “Now tell me…how exactly did it help your season or your post-season chances?” I answered you by the Trinity example and I am guessing that when IWU’s season that Scott Trost and his kids won’t be saying “darn, if we just hadn’t scrimmaged Illinois, that 25th regular season game might have gotten us the Super #1 seed instead of the normal mythical Division III #1 seed.”
Maybe I should have specified. I find it foolish for an outsider to tell a coach what is best for his or her program when it is a sweeping statement that attempts to say that one way is best for all.
Every program has a reason for a D1 game. Some maybe more valid than others but to tell coaches they shouldn’t seems crazy.