Division III teams should not be playing Division I teams. Not as a regular season game. Not as an ‘exhibition.’ Not ever, really.
I know that this will not be a popular position, but heck, that has never stopped me before.
I know it feels good to see your team or your son on the ESPN crawl, but the D-I schools are using us. They want a live practice under true game conditions and we are giving up a game that could otherwise enhance the competition within D-III. How much do we really get out of it? You can’t really run your system. You can’t play your normal rotations. You learn nothing about how your stuff works because let’s face it, unless you are playing a horrible D-I program, they are still way better than anyone we are going to see most years.
Let’s think about this … you get to ‘play your heart out’ basically knowing that winning or losing isn’t important in the game.
Well gang, that isn’t what basketball or life are about. Yeah, it’s how you play the game and all, but in the end we do keep score in these games. We don’t say at the end of the year “Well LeTourneau plays really hard, so let’s give them a Pool C bid over Augustana.”
Some will argue that it helps D-III recruiting … ehhh I doubt it. I have heard kids say that they come because the program wins. I have heard kids say that they come because the academics are good. I have heard kids say that they come because they think they will get more playing time. I have heard kids say that they come because of a strong national travel schedule. I have never heard a kid say that he went somewhere because they play a D-I exhibition game.
Some will argue that the games bring much-needed money into poor athletic departments. Playing for the money makes us mercenaries. It’s what is wrong with the D1 game and they are making us dirty by close contact. Do you want to be seen as Marathon Oil? Because that is all you really are to the D-I program in all but the most unusual situations.
As for reputation helping the D-III program’s reputation … nope not really. Who but the most dedicated among us remember Princeton almost losing to a D-I a few years back. With all due respect, how obscure is the D-I vs. D-III record? Usually all a D-I loss signifies is that the team was Prairie View A&M or Loyola or that they had five players suspended.
We should not be letting ourselves get used this way. If it’s an exhibition, why does it count against our 25 permitted games? Why isn’t it a scrimmage? Because then the D-I could not charge admission for it or broadcast it. Face it, we are dirtier every time we associate with the ‘big boys.’
As I said at the beginning, I know that it won’t be a popular position, but let’s think about it. We are good enough without them.
— “…you get to ‘play your heart out’ basically knowing that winning or losing isn’t important in the game.”
Coach, with the current Division III tournament format, there are a number of games played where “winning or losing isn’t important in the game” – or at least no more sore than an exhibition game. Unless a Division III team is playing an “in-region” D3 opponent, the game might as well be an “exhibition”, right? What is really the difference between tonight’s IWU vs U. Illinois game and the late December matchup of #1 Illinois Wesleyan (Midwest region) vs #4 Puget Sound (West) at the Westmont College tournament? Or when Calvin (Great Lakes) and Wheaton (Midwest) square off in the MIAA/CCIW Challenge – another game that doesn’t count because Wheaton, Illinois and Grand Rapids, Michigan are 203.56 miles apart.
I would hope in the case of IWU/Puget Sound and Wheaton/Calvin that the student-athletes are playing as hard as they possibly can and giving the same level of effort they’d give in an “in-region” game — and having seen many of these types of games the last few years, I am quite sure they do. Just as the Ripon kids did last night vs UW-Green Bay, and just like the IWU Titans will tonight at Assembly Hall. If there are players out there that don’t care about winning or losing just because the game will not count on their overall season record, I’d suggest that program has the wrong players.
— “Playing for the money makes us mercenaries.”
That’s kind of an overly dramatic statement. As far as the money goes – the “guarantee” – about a half hour ago I heard an interview on WJBC with IWU Athletic Director Dennie Bridges where they talked about the $10,000 IWU is getting for tonight’s contest. As Bridges said, “Tonight is a big financial night for the University of Illinois. They have 16,600 tickets sold at an average price of $25 – that’s $415,000. $10,000 isn’t all that much when you put it that way.” The guarantee is a very standard practice in Division I, as you know I’m sure. The D3’s are not “playing for the money” – I know that $10,000 IWU is getting has nothing to do with the reason they are playing the game – the money is simply a result of how D1 works.
I’m out the door to head to Assembly Hall to broadcast the Illinois Wesleyan/Illinois game. It will be a special night.
http://www.wjbc.com/
I’ve been arguing the point on the message boards today, but I’m not sure I could have put it any more eloquent that Q just did.
Coach, we have a lot of respect for you, but on this one, we may have to disagree.
I know a D-III school that played a D-I school last November and got beat by nearly 60 points. I read the account of the game on the D-I school’s website where they waxed ecstatic about their tremendous victory, never once mentioning that the opponent was a D-III school. So I e-mailed the SID at the D-I school inquiring as to why he ommitted that piece of information. The reply was (a) that he assumed people would know it was a D-III school and (b) that the D-III school was “getting a check” for their effort. I think the bottom line impression most people who saw that game would come away with was that the losing school had a lousy basketball team. Points (a) and (b) made by the SID would not enter their minds. I guess I agree with Coach C on this one.
Division III teams playing Division I basketball teams are getting benefits. The benefits include putting a big name basketball university on your schedule. This brings in recruits that are excitted about playing in a big university.
D3 playing D1 in basketball is very similar as in football when for instance Tennessee Volunteers schedule a very small school NCAA-1AA school to come into there house. The NCAA-1AA school knows they have no chance, however they do recieve ticket sales of traveling to the D1 stadium to play on the road.
I think one game of the year playing a large institution on the basketball court is only going to bring excittement to the school and to the recruits that are interested in coming to the school.
A few random thoughts on this topic.
Not all D3 vs D1 exhibition games are created equal. Not all D3 vs D1 games are created equal.
Playing in front of 16,000 people is pretty cool. I don’t care if you are D3, D1, Juco, whatever. Pretty cool.
Are they all like that? No. In fact, most are played in front of half empty gyms. Do the kids still get a kick out of it? I have found that they do.
–“and we are giving up a game that could otherwise enhance the competition within D-III”–
Lets be serious, at least in the IWU case that 25th game would be them playing a SLIAC school in Shirk and beating them by more than Illinois got them by. That isn’t enhancing anything except Dauksas’ assist numbers.
Many D3 programs have to fundraise just to operate at a competitive level. Less time fundraising means more time recruiting. If you can earn a few grand and the kids get a kick out of it then isn’t there a benefit?
Because it is D1 doesn’t make it inherently bad and because it is D3 doesn’t make it inherently good.
If D-1 schools want to play D-3 schools in exhibtions, then they should be exhibitions for BOTH teams and not count against the games played.
Otherwise it’s unfair.
I don’t think anyone who is seriously looking at D-3 is going to be swayed just because they have a chance to get whopped by 30 points by Directional State U. Also, many D-1 programs also have gyms that aren’t palaces (remember, the majority of D-1 schools aren’t huge behemoths themselves).
If someone is serious about playing D-3, they’re serious about the entire package a school has to offer, both in athletics and academics. So I can’t see that these exhibitions are a carrot to recruits.
Coach makes a lot of cogent points, but he loses me on the “mercenary” issue. I think Carl Weathers is right — balancing the books in a D3 athletic department is no picnic. Or, rather, it has to be a picnic … or a bake sale … or a dunking booth … or a donated-gift raffle … because D3 athletic departments for the most part don’t have much financial leeway for anything but the basic necessities.
Look, D1 vs. D3 games essentially come down to the D1 program buying the services of the D3 team as a bunch of warm bodies in a different-colored uniform in order to create an opportunity to schedule a home game. Since games against D3 teams don’t count towards formulating the D1 tourney field, regular-season D1 vs. D3 games are not really any different than the new-style D1 vs. D3 preseason exhibitions in that regard. The D3 program basically sells a meaningless loss (if it’s a regular-season game) or 4% of its regular-season schedule (if it’s a preseason exhibition) in order to garner a payday that could be a pretty significant bonus to their overall budget.
Yeah, it’s mercenary … but when you’re the poor kid on the block who has to count his pennies, “mercenary” is not necessarily a four-letter word.
I think in some cases, playing a D1 school has it’s benefits. As several posters have mentioned, it puts money into the budget of the D3 schools. Sure, we are selling out for money, but that’s not the only reason.
In Wisconsin, I think it has helped the average fan realize what D3 is all about. There are a lot of connections among D3 schools and D1 schools in the state and it gives the D3 schools publicity. Stevens Point played Marquette last year and put a huge scare into the Warriors/Golden Eagles. It was a great experience for the coaches and players. Coach Bennett did play his system and did play his regular rotation.
Platteville played Wisconsin last year. There is a connection with the current coach (Bo Ryan) with Platteville, since he used to coach them. It was nice to see the coach remember his roots.
I do believe it’s unfair for D1 exibitions to count against D3 scheduling, but until the NCAA realizes out-of-region games should also matter when it comes to the selection process, D1 games arne’t the only games that “don’t matter.”
I also think in rare occasions when D3 schools beat D1 schools, like Williams beating Holy Cross a couple of years ago, it gives D3 national exposure, no matter how small it is.
I think in the end, I don’t have a problem with the D1 exibitions. I got more excited about Point playing an exibition against Marquette than I did Point playing some NAIA team that we would beat by 25 points. And guess what, neither of those games mattered.
Anyone who was at the IWU/UofI game last night will know it was a “win” for everyone. Dennie Bridges proved throughout his coaching career that playing D-1 schools was a benefit. Heck, sometimes you can even win (just ask Arizona). End of discussion.
I think it helps the DIII schools get better playing superior competition. I have participated in a wide variety of amatuer athletics and i never got better beating the snot out of someone…i did however play my best and improve when i was going against a better team or individual and i think DIII gets the same benefit, improvement. For the DI, and UofI it is merely a coming out party to get fans excited and talking. By the way, I feel IL Wesleyan represented VERY well and i give lots of props to them and go CCIW
“Look, D1 vs. D3 games essentially come down to the D1 program buying the services of the D3 team as a bunch of warm bodies in a different-colored uniform in order to create an opportunity to schedule a home game.”
Sager, excellent point. I find that part of the transaction distasteful, to be sure. But I do think it’s valuable for our student-athletes to have that big-time experience if they can get it.
Here’s how I look at it: You can either get your team to sell magazines or do a car wash or whatever fundraiser you want and get a few hundred dollars, maybe over $1000 if you are lucky OR you could play a D1 game and get at least a couple thousand dollars at the minimum. Which would you rather do: do some stupid boring fundraiser, or play basketball as a fundraiser? If I were a coach, I’d schedule a D1 game every year if I could. I’d rather do raise money in a fun way and possibly get the upset instead of doing some other lame fundraiser.
Lynchburg played Wofford two years ago. We came away with a few thousand dollars and a fun trip. We also had a good showing and we played our regular rotation. Sure it was a loss, but we could ahve played a pretty good D3 team, lost, had as much fun in terms of the total experience of the trip, and we wouldn’t have brought in any money. Any reasonable D3 coach would play the D1 game.
I apprecicate the well thought-out discussion on this topic. It’s gratifying to see this level of discourse.
To re-state my point, I think that the $10 grand is money we would do better to turn down. We’re supposed to be above taking money to play. Hold a bake sale, sell pieces of the old floor on ebay, whatever. I have been in some tight athletic departments, and money is always good to have, but you can also find ways to make due without it.
I am not advocating playing a poor opponent with your 25th game. I would advocate playing a good, strong schedule and seeing how good a team you can beat. I think that it is a specious argument to say that we should play D1s becasue otherwise we would be playing dreck. That is a choice.
Yeah – there are a few times where the game is a good one or has positives (The Wisconsin games are a good example.) But gosh, how much help does the WIAC really need????
Choose a quality D3 opponent and perhaps start a new D3 rivalry. Play a game that can help you later. Maybe you see the team again in the NCAAs or you see somehting that you can use to attack another opponent. None of these things are going to happen playing a D1.
C
I don’t know what to think. I’ll let you know after my D3 Occidental Tigers play the D1 Utah State Aggies in Logan tonight.
The good news: Utah State 29, Oxy 28, Halftime. The bad news: Utah State 66, Oxy 38, Final.
Not that many people actually care about Occidental so it isn’t really “any” news to the rest of the country…………….
Whether the D1s are using “us” really isn’t the issue either. The NCAA, however, is pimping D3s. No matter if it’s a guaranteed or exhibition game vs. a D1, it still doesn’t count for anything. D3 schools lose a game just for “Tom”ing it up.
Seems the “rest of the country” cared about Oxy in ’03 when they beat a Cal State-Fullerton and went on to the Elite 8. And when they played competitively against UNLV. Provincialism is alive and well…
I say let ’em play the Big Boys.
Actually, that isn’t true. We didn’t cover the Cal State-Fullerton exhibition because 1) it was an exhibition and 2) Fullerton sat a handful of its top players. Not sure that says the rest of the country cared.
Fullerton is a shrug and a blip to most D-1 hoop fans – even me.
http://webcast.valpo.edu/listen.pls
Capital men are using Valpo at the moment. Lead by 7 with 8:26 left.
methodist has played a lower level d1 almost every year for the last 5 or 6 years – in addition to being a nice financial boost, mc has been relatively competetive in a few of the games and even led elon (and maybe furman in ’01, too) at the half – i think the best thing that comes from this is the mindset that it allows, especially if the team is relatively competetive…they understand that if they can play with the d1, they can play with anyone on their schedule
“The Roop” said: >>Not that many people actually care about Occidental so it isn’t really “any” news to the rest of the country
I don’t have a problem with The Roops’ beliefs when they are different from mine, however, I do have a problem with it when he tries to force his beliefs on the rest of the world. “Weston, Wisconsin, Gateway to the Middle of Nowhere!”
Narch –
If a team needs to play a D1 to think that they can play with anyone on their schedule, there are coaching issues in that program. If you are relatively competitive most D1s are going to kill you. You need to be HIGHLY competitive to play with a D1 and if youare highly competitive then you shouldn’t need a D1 game to feel like you can play with the rest of your schedule.
C
Here is a nice article from the Peoria Journal Star on Illinois Wesleyan, following the IWU/U. of Illinois exhibition last week…
http://www.pjstar.com/stories/110405/BIL_B81G6MPD.077.shtml
Peoria is about 50 miles from IWU’s Bloomington campus…the Journal Star does not normally cover Illinois Wesleyan. In fact, Peoria is the home to Division I Bradley of the Missouri Valley Conference, so most of the Journal Star’s college basketball coverage goes to BU.
This piece is an example of how a game like the one IWU played in Champaign can bring a D3 program some great visibility.
And some photos from that game…
http://www.iwuhoops.com/ILLINI.HTM
coach c – with all due respect, i don’t think that methodist has any coaching issues…coach smith plays one of the toughest schedules in the south region and has guided mc to 3 straight usasac championships…they’ve won games at hsc, cua and f&m over the last 3 seasons (none of which is an easy place to play, and the f&m and hsc victories snapped long home win streaks for both teams) and have 17, 18 & 20 wins over the last 3 seasons…coaching doesn’t really seem to be an issue to me, but i could be wrong – i think that playing d1’s is PART OF the coaching strategy…to give guys the sense that they’ve already played the toughest team that they will face before they get into the meat of their schedule – i KNOW it has worked, having talked to many players – i don’t think that coach smith feels he NEEDS to play d1’s to give them that confidence (mc did not play a d1 last season), but it hasn’t hurt – oh, and $3-5K to put in the budget doesn’t hurt, either – you can choose to look at playing d1’s as prostituting your program as some have suggested, or you can choose to look at the positives that come from giving your team a challenge, some exposure, a chance to play in a bigger arena and pocket some dollars that can go a long way toward improving the program – i chose the latter
Narch –
I wasn’t suggesting the Methodist has coaching issues. I have seen them play and have met Coach Smith. I was really suggesting that you were mistaken since it’s pretty obvious that there aren’t coaching issues!
Basically you have said that Coach Smith is good enough to motivate the guys wothout this game. I agree. I think it’s also pretty obvious that a schoool the quality of Methodist could find $5000 to replace the money lost from dropping the game.
Don’t you think that Methodist and IWU and a few others coul get HUGE presss by declaring that they simply won’t prostitute themselves anymore and agreeing to play a top D3 team rather than a D1 team?
Maybe what we ought to be doing is trying to schedul a National D3Hoops.com Appreciation Day where teams play tough in-region games and agree to give up the D1 money. Maybe a series of mini-tournaments over the Thanksgiving Weekend.
We just don’t need D1. We can do better on our own.
coach c – we obviously don’t see things the same, and that’s ok- #1, i never said that mc NEEDED to play a d1 to get motivated…simply that it was a nice side benefit – #2, i don’t feel like mc is being prostituted by playing d1’s and taking the money…i see it as a free market issue…prostitution, you see, is illegal in every us state except nevada
while i hear what you’re saying and respect your side of the argument, i think there is more than just the money involved – if mc were playing elon, and appalachain state and furman and citadel JUST for the dollars, maybe i would feel differently, but i think coach smith and the players feel that they can legitimately compete if they bring their “a” game and it helps them to get better – it is also a nice recruiting tool (which can help mc get better in subsequent years) – you’re correct that a good in-region game can do the same…i don’t think playing a d1 precludes a team from playing a strong in-region team or 2 (check out the mc schedule the last 4 years…it’s loaded with some good in and out of region games, most on the road)
in regards to the money, you act like it’s just growing on a tree somewhere – there is no bake sale or car wash or elite d3 basketball tournament, for that matter, that’s going to net $3-5k in a couple of hours – i like your mini-tournament idea, though, and i’m sure coach smith would be all for it, as well…just look at the monarch schedule…he’s not afraid to play good teams anywhere
Coach, your assertion that these D3 programs are “prostituting themselves” just seems overly cynical to me. You’re basically suggesting that money is the #1 reason for these games. While I can’t speak about other D1 vs D3 games, I am very aware of the circumstances surrounding the Illinois Wesleyan vs Illinois game. As I mentioned above, I know for a fact that money had absolutely nothing to do with that contest being scheduled. A once in a lifetime opportunity presented itself, IWU jumped at it, and it was a wonderful experience for Illinois Wesleyan student-athletes and fans. The money IWU got in return was the result of standard D1 operation procedure. I am guessing this is the case for most of these D1 vs D3 situations — a coach presenting his players with a very special opportunity and a way to reward them for all of their hard work.
The D1’s are looking for fundamentally sound competition in their exhibitions and they get that with most Division 3 programs. As Mark Tupper of the Decatur (Illinois) Herald & Review posted in his blog on Nov. 2…
***
http://www.herald-review.com/blogs/marktupper/?m=200511
“Illinois Wesleyan will be a much better test than some of the club or AAU teams we had before the ruling changed last year. In Wesleyan you’ll get a disciplined team that has depth, knows how to win, runs plays with precision and is ranked No. 1 nationally in Division III.
Who cares if they’re not as athletic as some of the old AAU teams? Those teams often showed up with six or seven players in different uniforms and looked ill-prepared to do much but run around and take a beating. Plus it had gotten to a bad point on the money. An AAU coach who was running one of those teams could hold Illinois hostage for $40,000 or $50,000 as their portion of the guarantee. And because you were recruiting players influenced by the AAU coach, you felt you had to ante up. The NCAA recognized this and took everyone off the hook by putting an end to it.
Now you can schedule an in-state school or a decent regional opponent from the Division II or Division III ranks and feel better about the matchup. It’s a great opportunity for Wesleyan, a game that will help them down the road. And it’s a good chance for a young Illinois team to play someone other than themselves.
***
This current group of IWU players (the senior class) has faced a bunch of very good Division 3 programs in their career, such as Wash U, Hanover, Wooster, Wheaton, Nebraska Wesleyan, Hampden-Sydney, Trinity (Tx), DePauw, Aurora, Augustana, Carthage, Benedictine, Wabash, Elmhurst, Chicago, Ripon. These guys square off against solid D3 competition all of the time. To replace the experience they just went through with another D3 game – say against Lawrence, a strong D3 program – is just not comparable.
The opportunity to compete at the highest level is something every athlete wants. For one game, I think it is very cool that IWU point-guard Adam Dauksas got to go up against maybe the best point-guard in all of college basketball, Dee Brown…
http://www.iwuhoops.com/illiniad.jpg
That’s all this is about.
Well, we haven’t started out too well, now 0-9 vs D1 in Exhibition games. Closest have been Capital losing by 6 to Valpo after being up 11 in the 2nd half, and Depauw losing by 9 to Evansville. Seems several of our D3 teams have been close into the 2nd half, but falter to big margins in the final 10 minutes.
Q –
You’ll excuse me I am sure if I don’t shed a tear for the Illini having to shell out 40k to beat an AAU team. There is some justice in having a D1 have to pay extortionate rates to play someone.
I am glad that it was good for the kids and nice things were said about IWU.
But that is not how it is in most of these situations. Most of the time the game is darn near unnoticed by the media and pretty much nothing is said about the D3 opponent.
If the game you are giving up is the game that keeps you out of the tournament, then how good is that D1 experience? If the D3 team you would have played in the 25th game ends up being your second round opponent in the tournament, how much would you want that “exhibition” back?
As for cynical, I am hardly cynical on this matter. I believe passionately in the independence and the ethic of D3 and this issue is one that I think sullies us.
I’ve gotta admint that I waffle back and forth over this issue. Love the attention DIII gets in a few of those games, but in the back of my mind I keep hearing a comment made by many posters:
“DIII is about scholar-athletes, with the focus on scholar”
We’re all proud of that fact, but it seems a bit hypocritical to then play for money – from those schools we “look down on”.
Just keep and eye out for the Carnegie Mellon Tartans @ Princeton on December 28th. Not only will we be able to run our own stuff, we’ll be able to get a W. Last year we were up on #17 Pitt by 1 at Halftime. This year, we’ll be leading at the end of the game.
i think you can still focus on the scholar AND take 3-4 grand from a d1…why do they HAVE to be mutually exclusive? must scholars also be paupers? 🙂
narch –
I appreciate your respect. We disagree, but I think we have presented our points well and I respect your point of view as well.
On the money issue, how much profit is actually left after the trip to the Citadel? After the buses and the hotel rooms and the meal money, Is there really a financial benefit to losing to one of the worst teams in D1?
CMU Hooper –
Have a few adult beverages before you posted? Predicting a win over a D1 is brave or foolish, perhaps both.
C
coach c – my understanding is that the citadel paid for transportation, hotel and meals and the monarchs cleared 3+ grand – the team got to take a trip to charleston, they toured a pretty historic city and campus, and played in front of a bunch of rowdy cadets – oh, and arthur hatch, who had never played organized basketball (but ended up as one of the best shot-blockers in d3 history) got his first taste of college hoops…he got a tech for dunking in warm-ups and didn’t report to the scorers table when he subbed in the first time (he didn’t know that he couldn’t dunk and had to check in, and our coaches didn’t think to tell him otherwise…those aren’t usually things you have to teach college basketball players) – the monarchs were down by 7, i think, at half when the citadel’s superior size and, primarily, depth wore mc down – i think that trip was WELL WORTH IT for the monarchs
narch –
I did the Citadel trip as an undergrad and it’sa lot of fun, but I am not sure how much it helped the team!!
Funny story on the T. Lots of guys who know better have gotten the same T. He has nothing to be embarrassed about.
D1 depth is usually the thing that kills the D3 squads. When they sb in the second 2 guard and he is STILL taller than your starting 4 man and faster than your point guard, that’s when you know that while you might have kept it close for a while, that the night is over and it’s time to stat thinking about what you are going to do after you sneak out following bed check.
C
“If the game you are giving up is the game that keeps you out of the tournament, then how good is that D1 experience?”
Coach, I know with IWU that wasn’t an issue. Scott Trost can’t find in-region games. It was play the Illini or play another NAIA or D3 out-of-region team…and neither counts, so why not play U. of Illinois?
Three Midwest region teams on IWU’s original 2005-06 schedule backed out of contracts, and I’m not sure I blame them. The current system has no subjectivity to it, so if you lose at IWU in a really tight game (like Aurora did last year), it is still a loss – 7 points in the QOWI. Or if you are Benedictine and play IWU pretty tough at home but lose, which the Eagles did last year…6 points. Why not go play a crap team and pick up 8 or 9 points in the QOWI with a win? (And pick up an in-region win in the process instead of a loss.)
Under the current system, why would any team serious about getting in position for a Pool C bid play a national powerhouse in their region? Does them no good, right? That is what a lot of traditionally strong programs are up against. IWU is playing 3 NAIA’s this season – Olivet Nazarene, St. Xavier, and either Westmont or Berry. The Titans have 2 D3 games that don’t count – Texas-Dallas and Puget Sound.
Do you play U. of Illinois in a game that doesn’t help you OR HURT YOU, or do you play a poor in-region D3 team that is going to cause your QOWI to fall even with a win?
Q –
I would play the D3 games. Who knows if the 10-15 team last year will be 10-15 this year or 15-10? D3 members play D3 competition. If you want to play an NAIAs, then join the NAIA.
IWU is clearly the exception, not the rule. Most teams can get games that count for solid points. And let’s be honest, if you are in Pool C competition, the committee is going to look at that win (or loss) against Puget Sound, REGARDLESS of what the friggin book says.
And if I am Benedictine, I play the tough team. I am a pretty good team and I think that I can beat most teams most nights. Plus, even a close loss that nets me 6 points may help me beat a team later in the year for 9 points that I might otherwise have lost to.
D3 is supposed to be about competiton above championships. if you are scheduling a season to try to get to the championships, then you are missing the point of the season. You are playing to avoid 6 point losses rather than playing to net 9 point wins OR a win over a non-region team that will make you better later.
The current system sucks. I can’t deny that. But the only way we have to change the system is to show by concrete, real world examples how the SOSI is a problem. Avoiding the problem by scheduling NAIAs or playing fewer than 25 games will not cary any weight at all with th powers that be.
C
I’m just curious, I thought division 3 athletics were supposed to be about competing and about enhancing the educational experience for the student-athletes? Isn’t the opportunity to play against a D1 opponent a great memory for players to have. I bet those guys from UIW might not have remembered playing some D3 non-league game, but I bet they’ll remember every second of the game against Illinois for the rest of their lives. Just because D3 is the only division that doesn’t offer scholarships doesn’t mean players, teams and coaches shouldn’t be doing everything they can to provide their players with the best experience they can. If you can make $3,000 off of one of those exhibition games that is a huge budget boost, it can be the difference between players having to pay for sneakers and travel suits out of their pocket or being able to provide it for them. It can help cover the cost of a team banquet at the end of the year so you can recognize your team and it’s accomplishments. Is the NCAA wrong to make it count as a contest instead of a scrimmage, absolutely. You should have the option to have it count as a scrimmage/exhibition just like Division 2 programs do. Even though it does count as a regular game that doesn’t mean we should deprive the student-athletes of the major benefits it will provide. C you say in one of your posts that D3 athletics is about competition not about championships, I agree. But don’t you think it’s a valuable lesson for players to learn to compete against people that may be more talented. I think that’s a pretty good life lesson, and since D3 athletics is about preparing student-athletes for life after they hang up their sneakers doesn’t it provide a great learning experience. Just another opinion on the subject.
I think it’s important to go to the source with regards to this issue. Ask the players what their position is and you might come to a different conclusion. Many of these young guys have grown up following and idolizing players on these D-1 programs. To give up one game in a season just to compete against a program you may have followed growing up more often than not would be well worth it for these kids. The overall exposure for the program provides benefits beyond those that can be measured just by wins and losses.
Another issue that seems to be overlooked is the fact that there are a few high caliber players playing in Division 3 because they couldn’t initially meet the academic requirements for a D1 program. These kids are being provided an opportunity to compete against D1 programs and possibly make a positive impression that could lead to them transferring to a D1 program when they become academically eligible. Obviously this may have a negative effect on any particular D3 program, but it does positively impact the student-athlete that would like to excel at a higher level. This may not be the norm, but there are several exceptional D3 players who can play at the D1 level, they just need an opportunity. Some players also develop late and may have been initially overlooked by D1 programs. These exhibitions will give them additional exposure.
To say that D3 programs can’t run their system is not really true either. One of the primary reasons that D1 schools want to schedule D3 schools is because they are more fundamentally sound and are able to run plays and sets that the all-star teams made up of former college players can’t always provide. It becomes more like the NBA all-star game and doesn’t provide any positive feedback with regards to how players are progressing and developing. Ultimately, D1 schools scheduling D3 exhibitions is beneficial to both parties involved, otherwise it wouldn’t be taking place. There is a greater statewide exposure (especially in WI) to the quality of D3 programs. This is not to mention the appreciation the alumni have to be able to see their team compete and gain national exposure. As a D3 alum myself, I can appreciate the chance to see my alma mater play against a nationally respected D1 program. When all is said and done, what matters most is whether or not the student athletes value the opportunity to play against D1 teams. My assumption would be that if you asked most D3 players, they would be definitively in favor of playing these D1 exhibitions.
Sorry guys, but the argument that D1 teams are using D3 teams strikes me as absurd. In fact, there are D1 coaches who are likely NEVER to schedule a D3 school again. For example: Navy, who lost to D3 Gettysburg last season… Holy Cross, who got spanked by Williams two seasons ago… Columbia, who almost dropped one to Stevens Tech 3-4 years ago… to name a few. Also, Colgate used to play “crosstown rival” Hamilton each season, until Colgate was tired of taking the “L” each year… Granted, there are many D3’s that cannot compete… But there are many who can. You think anyone wants to play Amherst? Hell, they could probably take UMass. And I’d bet my mortgage they’d take out any Ivy. D3 is better than you give credit for, folks.
D-I teams only use the D-IIIs that don’t come ready to play. There are a host of schools that are a little nervous to schedule the Tigers. Playing a D-I, and beating them, is your chance to show everyone that you are D-I players as well. Anytime the Tigers play, it’s D-I basketball. Rise to the challenge.