As we sit here waiting for the sectional hosting announcements (women’s are in… not the men’s), it seems like a perfect time to look back on the second-round games last night.
I got the chance to see a very good Guilford team in a battle against Johns Hopkins. While Guilford was up for most of the game by double-digits, JHU made another comeback to claw within one possession… only to see Guilford eventually put the Blue Jays away. Ben Strong showed why so many are talking about his play and abilities. As my color guy Larry Carney said last night, if there was a category for altered-shots (not actual blocks), Strong would lead that category as well. Guilford also shot the lights out of the building both nights. First night, 50% from the field… last night 56%… including going like 60% or better from beyond the arc.
How about some of the other surprises:
On the men’s side Stevens got another win – this time over Ramapo – to advance to the Sweet 16 in the school’s first ever trip to the tournament… and after a couple of disastrous years. Lake Erie tried to garner some respect from many in the D3 world, only see John Carroll come back from ten down to win. Hope made quick work of Calvin, who almost cost Hope’s chances of making the tournament this year… 80-64. Rhode Island College continued to take advantage of its opportunities, getting past a tough Brandies squad. And Carroll continues to surprise… with a big win over St. Thomas to advance.
On the women’s side… Scranton’s M&M’s got the job done… and will lead the team into another sectional round of games at their site. Mary Washington made quick work of its opponents (Notre Dame and Christopher Newport). NYU was rewarded for their easy dispatch of Ursinus and then Gwynedd-Mercy and will host. And how about Puget Sound and Howard-Payne! Puget Sound is onto the Sweet 16 thanks to a big win over McMurry and George Fox… but next up is Howard-Payne which continues to impress with the attendances at their place.
How about other reactions after the second round?
Congratulations to Stevens on the team’s performance in their first ever trip to the NCAA Div 3 tournament. An energetic and swarming team defense made the difference. Congratulations also to first year Coach Josh Loeffler.
I don’t get how St. John Fisher is th host loction in place of Wooster given the criteria for choosing locations.
“Sites are selected with geography, seating, quality of facility and availability of area accommodations in mind.”
Geography is basically a toss up because either JCU and Wooster have a ways to travel or SJF and Brockport do.
While Timken Gymnasium isn’t the most modern facility, it is one of the largest and home to a very supportive fan base that goes to games whether students are in town or not. Wooster had 2863 people come out for a game over Christmas break (v. ONU on 12/29), most of whom are not students. This past weekend, 3207 people came on Saturday and 3038 on Friday. With students still in town for Friday night and a presumably large number able to hang around for a Saturday game, attendence would make St. John Fisher’s 1200 seat facility far inferior. Economically, the NCAA would sell more tickets, making Timken Gym a quality facility.
The city of Wooster has plenty of hotels including a Hilton, a Best Western, and 2 Amerihosts, so accomodations would not be a problem (and tend to be inexpensive).
On top of all this (and I know I am biased), I think #2 Wooster is the best team of the four playing in this corner of the bracket, which should play into the formula for deciding the locations of the games. Most conferences give their season champions home court for their tournament, why shouldn’t the strength of a particular team play into the formula?
Is there something I’m missing as to why SJF would be selected to host?
How about Randolph Macon on the women’s side. With the graduation of Silva and Orten last year, they weren’t even expected to finish the regular season atop the ODAC. Now not only won the regular season and championship in their conference, they’ve completed two championship rounds without their current top scorer and rebounder with Ariail on the bench for a medical emergency. This is their 3rd sweet 16 appearance in a row. Not a bad rebuilding year.
Hey Scotfan, as a similarly biased Wooster fan, I honestly think Wooster makes poor geographic sense, but so does St. John Fisher. JCU is the only logical choice here IMHO. Having made the drive from Buffalo 30+ times myself, I know that Wooster is 5 hours from Rochester by car, 6 by bus. SJU is the furthest school to the North and to the East of the four, Wooster is the furthest both to the South and to the West. Therefore, geographically, neither makes sense.
But again, to SJU from Wooster is 6 hours by bus, from JCU is a little over 5, and from Brockport is less than one. For a team that made a trip to California, it really isn’t a horrid drive. Have a nice drive over there after your last class Friday, grab a quick a Garbage Plate at Nic Tahoes for dinner, enjoy some fresh Wegmans bread for lunch Saturday, and make it a weekend.
Cant argue with your arena point though…
Glad to see someone giving the R-MC women some recognition. I certainly never expected them to have this good a season. Nor, obviously, did anyone else since they only started getting top 25 votes at the end of the season. Now they are in the final 16, which should assure them of a place in the top 25 (top 16?) once the tournament is over. Good coaching and good chemistry can bring surprising results.
Seeding, not seating. That was the major factor.
I was at the record breaking Howard Payne vs. Chapman game this weekend. Given the intensity, # of fans in the crowd (4356), the fact that HPU is seeded #1, and the utter domination displayed on the court, I can’t see why the committee didn’t decide to have the sectionals in Brownwood. I know its a long way for most teams to travel, however, the atmosphere was unparalleled to any D3 game I have ever attended, or anyone else probably for that matter. What gives?
Hope and Calvin put on another great show of fan support in Aurora, Illinois of all places. It wasn’t full, but close, and it was every bit as energentic as most Hope/Calvin games.
When it was over it actually took a minute to realize Hope was advancing, and not just beating their rival.
Pat on the back to the fans that made the drive to Aurora.
……and a big thank you to the folks at Aurora for putting up with us.
Reactions….
Well, RaiderGuy and I got to Stout late (10 min into the first half) and the Simpson-Wheaton (Ill.) game was still quite close. Even into the half they were close. I don’t know if Wheaton lost their energy or Simpson got a second wind after the previous night’s coast-to-coast battle but it quickly became a one-sided game.
Simpson will be a difficult team to beat, I think. I predicted a close game (within 10 points) but I was way off in the end.
I just hope for more games like the Stout-Simpson game on Friday next week when Gordon and I make the trip down to Decorah, Iowa, for the Luther regional.
Howard-Payne isn’t hosting for the same reason Mississippi College isn’t hosting on the men’s side. The NCAA will always choose one flight over three.
Congratulations to Howard Payne and the fans for setting a record crowd Brownwood.
Sites are selected with geography, seeding, quality of facility and availability of area accommodations in mind. For more from Saturday’s games.
This doesn’t make sense. 3 out of the 4 teams will have to fly in. Why not award the team with the highest ranking? Can the other schools bring in 4,000 to 5,000 fans? I doubt it since their gyms don’t hold that many. Facility and accommodations? The town where Luther is located is only 8,000 to 9,000 people. You mean they have better motels, etc than larger towns?
The NCAA lost there credibilityon this decision.
Only two of the four have to fly to Luther, however.
Which one drives?
Wash U drives from St. Louis to Decorah, Iowa.
So what their saying is that St. Louis doesn’t have better facilities and accomodations than Decorah, Iowa? Looks like they would have had Luther drive to St. Louis. That way Puget Sound and HPU could fly into St. Louis. Looking on the map, looks like MSP is the closet airport to Decorah, IA. There even choosing the #25 team over the #11 team in this case. The NCAA still doesn’t make sense in this tournament.
How do yuu folks feel about Wisconsin officiating? Our (Elmhurst) experience in Platteville (05-06) was unforgettable. This year Augustana lost by 3 at Stevens Point in a game they feel they should have won — the Pointers only non-conf. game vs. non-Wisc team.
Now Washington and Hope face the same test. Is Ed Hightower busy this weekend?
Is there any thought of rewarding teams/schools who may not have hosted in the past?! Wash U. has hosted sectionals in the past… Luther hasn’t. If there isn’t any difference in who gets sent where… how about letting another school experience the sectionals at their site.
As for attacking the NCAA on this, the women’s side of things is not a target that deserves it. The women’s committee I feel has always done a very good job making the brackets as competitely balanced as possible and the decisions on the hosting schools has usually been good one. I don’t have a huge problem with Luther getting the chance to host. If the accomodations were truely that bad and the travel an extreme in the minds of the women’s committee, Luther wouldn’t be hosting.
I can only hope and wish that the men’s committee would someday take a page out of the women’s committee’s book… to create more balanced brackets and possibly better hosting decisions (though this year, I don’t have any major problems with hosting decisions).
I understand your thinking on this, but my comment is based on the following statement that was written, and it doesn’t base anything on where games have been hosted in the past.
Sites are selected with geography, seeding, quality of facility and availability of area accommodations in mind.
If “letting another school experience the sectionals at their site” meant anything, Scranton and Southern Maine would not be continuingly, ceaselessly hosting sectionals.
The WashU women have hosted a sectional exactly once since I started watching them, in the year they least needed the home court advantage, 2000.
I know that ScotFan and CastABlueStone already talked about this, but is geography really the only factor that goes into this? I can’t believe that we’re (yes, I too am a biased Scot fan) the #2 team in the NATION and are forced to go on the road for two games this late in the tournament. It seems a bit out of sorts and unfair to those teams that worked so hard during the regular season that geography plays such a critical role. First being seeded behind Lake Erie (thank you, JCU for knocking them off) and now this… oh well, I guess it’ll mean that much more when we make it to the Final Four 🙂
But are we the only team affected by this? I havne’t looked closely enough to see if there are others….
The D3hoops rankings (i.e. No. 2) are not a factor in NCAA tournament seedings.
And no, Wooster isn’t the only facing the geography problem. Howard Payne (above) and Bowdoin have similar arguments.
I don’t see anything about Depauw University women’s basketball in round 1 or 2.
Do we only talk about the Eastern Schools??????????
You need not worry about having WIAC in Stevens Point this weekend. (Hopefully the teams are more worried about their opponent than their refs.) The NCAA assigns the officials from a conference not represented. I imagine you will see MIAC or CCIW refs in Stevens Point.
Now many refs work multiple leagues, but the NCAA makes the decisions.
WIAC refs, that is.
Jay62, There won’t be WIAC officials reffing any UWSP games. The NCAA has refs from other conferences during the NCAA tournament officiating games.
Heh… guess JB was typing his response while I was typing mine!
Connie: Talk about DePauw! Here’s your chance! 🙂
If we only talked about eastern schools then I’m not sure why we’re talking about Luther (Iowa), Washington University (Missouri), Wooster (ohio) and Howard Payne (Texas). Then again I suppose they area all “east” of something. 🙂
Seriously, DePauw is very good. Bondi is a tremendous talent and has the skill set to be one of those “it” players who defines a championship team. Pruzin and the Haehl sisters are solid at the guard position.
My two concerns with DePauw:
Can they win four straight on the road: Their three loses (IWU, Oglethorp and Austin) all come away from Greencastle. Arguably every team they see the rest of the way will be stronger than those three.
Can Bondi get help down low: She’s a great talent, but they need other post players to emerge. The teams who have guards who can score and forwards who can rebound and play punishing defense are the ones who win championships.
I’m a SUNY Brockport fan, so I may be biased. I’m not sure if it’s always the way it’s been done, but why should a team – no matter the seed, have the possibility of playing four straight home games. If St. John Fisher should win it’s next two games to go to the Final Four, they will have done it with the home court advantage throughout. What about neutral courts, like D1? That having been said Brockport beat SJU at SJU this year, but lost at home.
That makes complete sense. And because of that idea… the NFL has decided that the top seeds in the NFL post-season… will play only one game at home!
Howard Payne is east of Coleman TX, Sul Ross State University and the sunset. 🙂
Neutral courts would be a bigger mistake than placing games in small gyms and encouraging less attendance (and less revenue). So say that the Wooster/JCU/Brockport/SJFC series was played in Erie, PA or Buffalo, a smaller number of fans for both schools would travel this way. 3000 people won’t travel to Rochester this weekend (though I would suspect Wooster will sell its 450 tickets), but they would to Wooster because it is in town. If it were anywhere off-campus, the number would decline. More fans = more revenue. If there is any argument as to why Wooster is the better team (which certainly exists), then it is best for all NCAA schools to use large gyms that regularly get large numbers of people at the games.
Neutral sites work for D-IA games because those teams have a large enough and national enough following to sellout games. Also, there significant interest of residents of host cities in seeing these games. While we know that D-III basketball is a very good, quality game, there wouldn’t be that kind of local interest in games and fewer tickets may be sold than for a tiny 1200 person gym.
As for home court for 4 games, this is a huge advantage, but one that can and should be justified and earned. UWSP, Amherst, and VWU all earned this right. As a basketball team, Brockport hasn’t earned the right to host (nor has JCU), because they lost conference tournaments. If Brockport had won the conference tourney, they would be hosting this weekend given they were higher in the regional rankings than SJFC beforehand. Wooster was behind Lake Erie College in the regional rankings, but given their loss, Wooster would now be atop that region, as SJFC is in its region.
As far as Luther hosting, it seems that in the Committee’s eyes, that Luther was ranked higher than WashU.
They really try to stick with their seedings (however well or ill conceived they are). Geography is obviously a mittigating factor for travel, but if all else meets the minimum criteria, they try to stay with the higher ranked teams.
St. John Fisher is also a bit of a head scratcher, but maybe somehow, they were ranked ahead of Wooster in the committee’s eyes??
Fisher had a considerably better QoWI than Wooster, and may well have been a higher national seed. Plus, having a second team (Brockport) close at hand was surely a plus in the eyes of the committee, as IMHO it should have been.
Where are the Quality of Wins Index rankings published? Massey shows Wooster (35th) with a much stronger schedule than Fisher (198th).
http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&sub=III&mid=6
Also, JCU is much closer to Wooster, so the point that Brockport is closer to Fisher is negated. Fisher was the top seed out of their region, but it may have been a weak region given that the primary QoWI is based solely on in region play.
How about this though – instead of putting SJF/Brockport/Wooster/JCU in Erie or Buffalo put it in another Rochester area school. (U of R or Nazareth) Plenty of SJF and Brockport fans would attend w/o SJF getting the huge advantage of 4 straight home games
You can see season-ending QoWIs here:
Link
St. John Fisher had a QoWI of 10.423, 15th best in D3. Wooster’s was 10.091, 28th nationally. Massey ratings are not factors in tournament seeding, but QoWIs (however flawed they may be) are.
University Heights (JCU’s location) is at least an hour’s drive from Wooster, whereas Fisher and Brockport are essentially in the same city. To me, that’s very different.
The QoWI only accounts for in-region games and thus completely fails to account for the differences in regional strength. It can, therefore, be accurately applied to in-region seeding, but is flawed beyond that. Within the regions, both Wooster and Fisher were second in QoWI. Massey’s rankings account for strength of schedule and strength of conference, which I believe is a better representation of team strength.
When it comes to travel, Wooster and JCU both have to travel a great distance on the NCAA’s dime, just as Fisher and Brockport would have to do to come to Ohio. If one site can better offset the cost and provide an even arguably better team home court, all NCAA schools would benefit.
Come Saturday, we will all get to see who the best team from the corner of the bracket is, so that will settle it.
If the games were elsewhere in Rochester, it would be nice that a larger facility could be utilized. Nevertheless, home court should be earned and if its got to be in NY, then it should be at Fisher. Plus, how much of a home court advantage can it be in the gym (minus obvious “sleeping in your own bed” arguments) when Wooster is allotted 40% of the seats? It will be a small, electric atmosphere. I wish I could make it. Anyone know if Fisher streams games online?
I’m not sure if Fisher does, but we are broadcasting all the games from SJF.
Pat Coleman will have the call with the link available off the audio page:
http://www.d3hoops.com/audio
While I agree that Howard Payne’s women deserved to host the sectionals round of the tourney, after being at that game against Chapman I don’t see how anyone is going to match up with their speed, height down low, or the depth of the bench. I look forward to making the drive to Mass. to watch the final four with the Lady Jackets bringing the PAYNE!
I think its good that nobody is looking at DePauw this weekend on the women’s side. They’re obviously under most peoples radar, and based off what I’ve read throughout d3hoops.com, they hardly exist as a competitor in this years national tournament. No one thought they’d get out of the second round. Everyone’s talking either Southern Maine, Calvin, or Emmanuel will take aim at Springfield. Not DePauw, though? I find it somewhat amusing since I’ve followed them for the last couple of years. This isn’t a one (wo)man show like some people think. This team is 27-3, has an abundent amount of depth, and has a coaching staff that always has them prepared.
Gmann talked about his two concerns with DePauw: 1. Can they win 4 games on the road?
2. Can Bondi get help down low?
To answer the first question…. yes. DePauw is 15-3 on the road this year. Their first loss came to a very good Illinois Wes. team (in the second game of the year… which came on the heals of DPU beating Wash U). If we really want to say they aren’t a very good road team because they lost their 2nd game of the year, then maybe there not. There second loss was to NCAA qualifier and conference foe Oglethorpe on a last second (.8 seconds to be exact). They turned around to play OU two more times, and beat them by 37 and 13 points, respectively. Their last loss came at the hands of conference foe Austin. DePauw got a chance to play them once more in the conference tournament, and beat them (on the road) by 29 points.
DePauw played in December in the San Diego Surf
n’ slam tournament against Kenyon, Medaille, and Point Loma (NAIA). Three games, three days, on the road. Three wins. They just finished up a little over a week ago with winning their conference tournament in Memphis. Three games, three days, on the road. Three wins. I think this team is built strong enough to handle themselves on the road. In past history, they’ve played better on the road. If DePauw loses this weekend, its not going to be because they aren’t a good “road” team.
To answer the next question, Bondi is a serious talent. I don’t think a lot of people recognize the the things that she is capable of doing. She is definitely an all-american. But does she have help inside? Well, the Tigers rotate 5 to sometimes 6 players on the inside. Bondi leads them minutes in minutes(25 mpg), but 6’1 freshman Emily Marshall (17.1 mpg), 6’3 senior Bridget Bailey (15.2 mpg), 5’11 freshman Jenna Marshall (12.9 mpg), 5’11 sophomore Andrea Travelstead (9.3 mpg), and 6’0 freshman Meghan Warner (11.3 mpg)all contribute in multiple ways.
Marshall starts and averages 5.8 ppg, 6 rpg; Bailey averaged 6.6 ppg, 4.3 rpg; Fernandez 4.8 ppg, 2.8 rpg; Travelstead 3.3 ppg, 2.3 rpg; Warner 4.2 ppg, 2.6 rpg. Marshall in Saturday night’s second round game had 4 pts and 10 reb; Fernandez in Friday night’s second round game had 7 pts and 11 rebounds. AMAZINGLY, Coach Kris Huffman does have players to turn to to back up Liz Bondi. Marshall, Fernandez, Travelstead and Bailey have all started games wearing a Tiger uniform.
I will agree with gmann that DePauw is “very good”. They really are. They are a DEEP team. Gmann talked earlier about the Haehl sisters, Pruzin, and Bondi – but he might also have wanted to add in there senior point guard Suzy Doughty, who became the all-time SCAC leader in steals AND assists this season. Or possibly mention junior Kalei Lowes, who was named SCAC Defensive Player-of-the-Year.
“The teams who have guards who can score and forwards who can rebound and play punishing defense are the ones who win championships.” Good luck DePauw University! Let’s hope you can find some guards who can score (DPU guards: 40 ppg/DPU forwards: 38.8 ppg – Division III leader in both FG% and 3FG%)… some forwards who can rebound (DPU forwards 25.9 rpg/DPU guards: 15.1 rpg – outrebounding opponents by 10.3 rebounds per game – ranked #5 in country in rebounding margin) , and some girls that can play some defense 🙂 Go get’em Tigers.
In response to note #33 above suggesting that teams should “earn” their right to host Sectionals, how has VA Wesleyan earned that right over Mississippi College?
VWU:
– more central geographic location
MC:
– higher D3Hoops ranking
– higher NCAA ranking
– higher QOWI
– much larger gynasium (and good attendance)
– better overall record
– better record against common opponents
The statement “Sites are selected with geography, seeding, quality of facility and availability of area accommodations in mind.” seems to only be true if there is no clear leader in the geography department.
It looks like there is nothing MC could do to “earn” the right to host (other than move its campus further to the northeast). They are at the mercy of the geographic locations of the other teams which also advanced.
This post is basically a copy/paste from this same time last year as the same situation happened in 2006.
The clear leader in the geography department was Virginia Wesleyan since they are within a bus drive of two schools and only one flight was needed. If Mississippi College had hosted, that would have required three flights (fourth, if you count mine).
If you notice that geography is the first category listed… with seeding second.
I agree dlee. Howard Payne (same conference as Mississippi College) is in the same situation. I think teams should be rewarded. I doubt there will be few games if any, Men’s or Women’s that will draw the crowds that Howard Payne women drew in their last 3 home games. Approx 3500 in the first and second, and 4,356 in the last game.
You’re right, if we could just move to the NE. People up there don’t know about traveling long distances. I ask all of you and look at a map. Find Alpine, TX (Sul Ross Univ), then find Marshall, TX (ETBU), Mississippi College (Clinton, MS), and Louisiana College (Pineville, LA).
I agree dlee. Howard Payne (same conference as Mississippi College) is in the same situation. I think teams should be rewarded. I doubt there will be few games if any, Men’s or Women’s that will draw the crowds that Howard Payne women drew in their last 3 home games. Approx 3500 in the first and second, and 4,356 in the last game.
You’re right, if we could just move to the NE. People up there don’t know about traveling long distances. I ask all of you to look at a map. Find Alpine, TX (Sul Ross Univ), then find Marshall, TX (ETBU), Mississippi College (Clinton, MS), and Louisiana College (Pineville, LA).
That’s exactly my point, d-mac: there is nothing MC (or Howard Payne) could *do* to *earn* the right to host. The hosting guidelines lists 4 criteria, but if there is a clear leader in the geography category (which is nothing MC can do anything about) then case closed … forget about the other so-called criteria. And since there are so few D3 schools in the deep south which even make the tourny, MC will never be able to compete geographically. They then basically have no shot at ever hosting the Sectional round, regardless of the season they put together (unless maybe if all the other ranked teams in their section were to lose in the Regional round … even then it would probably mostly come down to geography). That just seems wrong.
We could have our head coach on the Sectional Committee like Luther’s head coach…that might help a little don’t you think?
I just hope Mississippi College and Howard Payne win all their games. Wouldn’t that be nice to have the champions from the South. High School football isn’t the only sport down here.
Robert – curious… didn’t Virginia Wesleyan win the championship last year… and isn’t VWC part of the South Region? Or do they not count for some reason?