Earlier this season Coach C sparked a spirited discussion with a well written entry about whether it’s worthwhile for Division III schools to play Division I schools. Given tonight’s top story, I thought it was worth reviving the discussion.
I always wonder how “our guys” stack up against the big guys? Not Duke or Villanova, but if our top teams played their bottom teams, would they win? Tonight’s game between No. 5 Puget Sound and Division I UC Riverside (0-8) was a good case study.
Puget Sound is ranked highly, though some may argue perhaps too highly. We’ll see whether that’s the case when they play top-ranked IWU next week. UPS also plays an unusual, frenetic style of play. I’m not sure whether that makes them more or less likely to succeed against DI. But UPS is certainly a capable standard bearer for D3.
Meanwhile the UCR Highlanders (“who wants…to live…for-ever!”) are near, if not at, the bottom of Division I. For those who like such indices, the Wolfe rankings have UC-Riverside No. 693 overall, behind more than 50 Division III schools including UPS (No. 676). UCR also drubbed Redlands 162-123 in an exhibition back in November.
In the first half it was Puget Sound that was behind, trailing by as many as 18 points and 13 at the break. But the Loggers rolled (get it?) out of the locker room and cut the lead quickly. UPS and UCR battled back and forth over the final 10 minutes before the Loggers put the game away on Josh Walker’s defensive rebound at 113-111.
This isn’t the first time a D3 team has beaten a DI. Defending national champion Williams beat defending Patriot League champion Holy Cross 78-71 in 2003. And D3 tallied two victories over D1 teams last year (HSC over Longwood, Gettysburg over Navy). But more often than not, the results aren’t pretty. See West Virginia 83 W&J 33.
A recent article in the Allentown (Pa.) Morning Call offers one explanation on why these match-ups are more frequent right before Christmas. It also underlines the good and bad of these match-ups.
On the bright side, wins like the UPS victory are special moment. When Swarthmore beat Lafayette, Coach O’Hanlon says the Garnet “celebrated like they had just won the NCAA.” That sounds good.
But the idea that DI teams are trolling for easy wins because their students are busy with exams is patronizing. Plus it’s not like our players don’t have academic concerns of their own. By the way, Lafayette beat Dickinson by 20.
So where do I fall on these match-ups? I still think one size doesn’t fit all. Division III teams should make these decisions for themselves based on the likelihood of being competitive, financial considerations and whatever else factors into it. It’d be tough to tell the kids at Puget Sound that they shouldn’t have played what was a memorable game for them.
But in my inglorious athletic career, the only thing that ticked me off more than getting my butt kicked was getting it kicked by someone who wasn’t even trying their hardest.
So, considering the UPS victory, where do you stand?
I am still willing to take their money, as long as it’s not a Redlands/Villanova situation, where Redlands was being used to help Villanova get some tainted players clean so they could take them to Hawaii.
In a typical year D3 goes 2-53 (or thereabouts) vs. D1s and the D1s that lose are usually lesser known than the D3s that beat them. So it is hard to determine if there is a point to any of these games. However, this was a regular season game that counted. Not towards the D3 “in region” criteria mind you, but the UPS players will always be able to say they “officially” beat a D1.
It’s all about the Benjamins at times. I can see where a D-3 that needs a cash infusion for their athletic department (or any department) will take the money, but for the life of me I don’t understand why, for example, Denison played Akron, unless they absolutely couldn’t find another game.
This one, well, it was ripe for the picking. UCR was struggling mightily in trying to change from a standard team to a run-and-gun team.
I believe Coach C was particularly opposed to exhibition games where a D3 has to use it against their count of 25 total where the D1 does not. His main argument is that the 25th game a D3 chooses to not play could be used to enhance Division 3.
carlweathers is right. That was my main problem, but I really don’t think we should be playing these games at all.
For instance, I think UPS and D3 in general would have been better served if they had played a D3 strong regional game last night, like Neb Wes or Chapman or the like.
The thing is, ou top 20 or so teams, might, on a good night, be able to beat a few dozen of the most pathetic teams in D1. SO what? What does that get us? Nothing.
I’m still with Coach C on this one, as I was before. I do understand the attraction of playing a D1 school for the money to those D3 schools where, unlike many if not most D1 schools, athletic departments have no significant revenue stream from ticket and merchandise sales. Other than that, I think D3 vs D3 is the way to go.
Last night, DePauw went to Northwestern and it was a game that really shouldn’t have been played. It was before a small crowd, DPU just played at Conseco Fieldhouse earlier in the week, and the game may hurt Northwestern’s bid for an NIT berth, since that win can’t be used.
I competed in college in track and cross country, and I do not want to hear about how it is not worth it to compete against Division I teams. The cross country team I was on beat one-quarter of the Division I programs we took on at least once in my four years, and we finished in the middle of our conference. Not only are such matchups reasonable, but they should be done. Division III athletes should have an opportunity to see how they measure up to those in the more prominent part of the NCAA. NCAA Division I schools should have to defend their distinction as being “above the Division III level.” Finally, it has been my experience that athletes can learn greatly from each other about what it is like on “on the other side,” and I believe that this is a good thing. The exam schedule excuse for Division I teams getting beat by Division III teams is not reasonable: the academic pressures at most Division III college athletes are usually higher than those of most Division I athletes. The academics are usually more rigorous, and Division III athletes often have to defend academic scholarships and never, legally, athletic scholarships.
“Not only are such matchups reasonable, but they should be done.”
In cross country? Sure. In baseball? Sure. But those are not the sports at hand.
Rare is the cross country team will several on full scholarship – in baseball they have to split their scholarships around.
Speaking here of “real” games and not exhibitions…
I am not in favor of the D3/D1 matchups that have absolutely no possibility of being a competitive basketball game the moment they’re scheduled, such as West Virginia vs Washington & Jefferson (83-33). I mean, WVU was a D1 Elite Eight team in 2005 and W&J was 10-18 D3 team…we all knew that would be embarassing. I do not think we should be playing the games that are scheduled only so the D1 can pick up an easy W during finals.
There are a ton of potential D3/D1 matchups that would be great games. For example, I’d love to see Illinois Wesleyan face crosstown D1 Illinois State – IWU would be favored on a neutral court. IWU is a lot better than Eastern Illinois. The best example is Puget Sound vs UC Riverside…we all knew going into that game it should be competitive. I’m pretty sure Riverside didn’t schedule that game thinking that had a free W. And I think Carnegie Mellon vs Princeton should be a decent game.
The problem is, 90% of D1’s will not play a D3 that has any chance of playing with them. For example, Illinois Wesleyan head coach Scott Trost is best friends with Loyola (Chicago) head coach Jim Whitesell. Whitesell would not play IWU this year and was very upfront and honest with Trost that he couldn’t afford to lose to a Division III team and knew that IWU would give them all they could handle. Instead Whitesell scheduled D3 Lake Forest. Loyola won the game last week 87-72, after being up just 4 at the half.
As long as the D3’s feel they have a chance to be competitive in the game, I have no problem with these games…I like our student-athletes getting that chance. If the game ends up being a blowout, like DePauw vs Northwestern or John Carroll vs Cleveland St, who cares. Illinois Wesleyan played an in-region D3 game last week vs Illinois College — IWU was up 67-27 at the 12:59 mark of the 2nd half. That wasn’t much fun either.
(I have no problem with either of those two games above…if DePauw and John Carroll have their better teams, they make a decent showing in those games.)
I don’t think 8 years out of the last 10 that DPU and Northwestern is competitive. It does the D-1 schools no good if they have a good chance at an NIT or NCAA bid (like Northwestern and Loyola) – it doesn’t count for anything for D-3 schools.
Eastern Illinois is horrid, sure, but Illinois State is mid-level, and has a higher Sagarin rating than Evansville, who beat Purdue this year.
SmedIndy, for purposes of this discussion, I think we should only concentrate on the D3 side of it. Why the D1 would play a D3 (and jeopardize a tournament bid) is another discussion entirely.
You said that a game vs a D1 “doesn’t count for anything for D-3 schools” (which is true), but neither does a game vs any team out of your D3 region (or 200 miles). #1 IWU is going to play #5 Puget Sound Thursday in a game that will count as much as DePauw’s game vs Northwestern. And when Wheaton and Calvin – two of the premier D3 programs – played on 12/3 @ Hope, it counted as much as that John Carroll/Cleveland St game since Wheaton, Illinois is 203.56 miles from Grand Rapids, Michigan and not 200.00.
For me, the one argument in this debate I will never agree with is that these D1 games take away a game you could be playing vs a D3. Almost every D3 team in the country has games they are playing that “don’t count” anyway, whether it be standing rivalries vs an NAIA school (Hope/Calvin vs Cornerstone, Wittenberg vs Cedarville, IWU vs Olivet Nazarene, etc) or games vs a D3 that is not in the region and not within 200 miles. For purposes of getting ready for the CCIW season, I’d much rather see Illinois Wesleyan play D1 Illinois State than D3 Illinois College.
q –
You would rather play a game agianst a team that you will never see agian and that you will need to prepare for in a way that is likely different that any D3 game you are going to play all year rather than play a D3 game against a team you might see in the tournament later?
I just think you are flat wrong on that one my friend.
C
Yes, that IWU game vs D3 in-region Illinois College (47-18 at halftime) could really come in handy come March.
And why would IWU prepare for, say, Eastern Illinois in a different manner than for CCIW opponent Elmhurst? Elmhurst is bigger and more talented than Eastern Illinois.
We can always hope the NCAA does away with some of their onerous regionality issues so that games against D-3s do count for a lot.
You need to break out of the IWU mentality and look at the issue as a whole. It did nothing for DePauw to play Northwestern. It did nothing for Denison to play Akron, and it will do nothing for Kenyon to play Wright State.
Smed, that is where I get back to my original statement…
“I am not in favor of the D3/D1 matchups that have absolutely no possibility of being a competitive basketball game the moment they’re scheduled…”
Those games you mentioned probably due fall into that “no chance of being competitive” category. (I thought DePauw played Northwestern close recently, but maybe not.) But let’s say Elmhurst could play Loyola…I’d argue that that’s a game that could help them get better and more prepared for the CCIW than a game vs D3 in-region Fontbonne.
Q –
Ok so why bother playing that D1 that is smaller and less talented than Elmhurst? Why not play a talented D3 and help promote our Division?
C
C, according the the D3hoops.com poll, there are only 15 Division III teams in the country better than Elmhurst and only 12 better than Augustana. 7-0 North Central, now coached by the guy who built Nebraska Wesleyan into a power, may end up in the Top 25 at some point very soon. So if you are IWU let’s say, your conference (the CCIW) potentially has 3 other Top 25-caliber teams to contend with.
If your philosophy as a program is, and always has been, to play the absolute best schedule possible in the non-conference – teams that are as good or better than the teams in your league -to prepare for the CCIW schedule, how many D3 options do you have? What if you can’t schedule a WIAC team, Wittenberg, Wooster, etc because of dates or whatever…you already have the likes of Puget Sound, Chicago, Hanover, and Wash U on the schedule. But Loyola (2 hrs away) or Eastern Illinois (1.5 hrs away) will play you. Again, the game isn’t going to “count” for anything, so why not play EIU instead of a D3 game against a team that is not “Top 25 caliber”?
Carthage, a CCIW school, played Eastern Illinois during the 2000-01 season. Carthage finished 2nd in the CCIW…Eastern Illinois won the Ohio Valley Conference. Carthage lost 72-71 and missed a layup to win it…
http://www.carthage.edu/athletics/mens/basketball/eiu.htm
I spoke to Carthage coach Bosko Djurickovic – a guy with 5 D3 national championship rings – right after that game and he couldn’t say enough things about how that game would help his team get ready for the CCIW.
I think it is safe to say that we all have different perspectives on this issue based on the leagues/teams we follow. That doesn’t mean anyone is wrong here.
Guys, I know some of you will rip it, but I still say the D3 – D1 matchups are looked on favorably by the most important people in the process – and that’s the kids. Though 35 years removed from playing D3 ball at RPI (not D3, but college division when I played), the games I remember the most are the ones against archrival Union, and the games we played against D1 teams Colgate, Cornell, and Georgetown (pre Patrick Ewing). Those were the games that we were totally pumped for, because it was our little taste of “the big time”. And I can still brag (at least to myself), that I was on a team that came within single digits of Georgetown, and Beat Cornell when I became an Asst coach for several years. I’d imagine D3 kids today feel the same way. And I’m SURE any D3 player values a game vs a D1 team, even if it’s just the hype, the personal psyche, prior to a blowuot, over a 50 point win vs a low level non conference opponent. Put the kids in your equation, Coach, Smed. Ask the kids from DePauw and Denison how they felt about those games… I bet they were on pins and needles going into them, and at worst, they probably came away saying now I know why the guy I was playing against is D1 and I’m D3… but IF I get a step quicker……
With a non-existent crowd and a D-1 team that probably is looking at it more like a scrimmage? If I were DePauw, I’d try to play Franklin or Anderson. If I were Denison, I’d try to get a game in against Muskingum or Otterbein.
Well, the good thing is the selection criteria have been on the books for quite some time now. If coaches choose to ignore them and schedule for their own reasons, then their kids might be disappointed on Selection Sunday.
Q –
I will tell you where you are wrong, It is wrong to tell me that my perspective comes from the league or team that I follow.
As I stated a few weeks back and re-iterate now, my belief comes from the fact that in the vast majority of the cases, these are bad games. Some are horrible.
Yeah there are a handful of teams that can compete with some of the D1s, but not many. We would be better served by playing the D3 games and pointing out the unfairness of the regional ranking criteria. Instead, some teams schedule based on trying to get into the post-seaosn and that is a mistake. We will never fix things with that approach
You are looking at things from a very narrow perspective and I will tell you that while on opinion is right or wrong, that there are some that can help make changes.
C
“Instead, some teams schedule based on trying to get into the post-seaosn and that is a mistake. We will never fix things with that approach”
I’m not sure I’m following your point here. Are you saying that you disagree with the teams that load up on D3 in-region cupcakes in an effort to play the “in-region game”? Like Augustana of the CCIW…7-0 in-region without a single game vs team as good as their CCIW contender counterparts. Again, just trying to make sure I understand your point…do you think Augustana should not schedule that way? Because I would have guessed you are all for playing as many D3 games as possible, as Augie is doing.
I think the goofy in-region system has pushed a bunch of teams in that direction. No matter what conference you are in, schedule a bunch of in-region teams you should beat and go rack up a gaudy in-region winning %. The problem is, you play that kind of schedule, then you get into your conference and your team isn’t ready to play against strong competition.
I am not as opposed to the D3 philosophy and its implementation to encourage competition amongst D3 schools. The vote on, and hopefully the passage of, the “holiday” legislation at the January 2006 Convention may improve the situation.
The philosophy for in-region play is consistent across all NCAA sports. The CCIW is one of the dominant conferences in its region across all sports. There is no way around that. If Carthage can schedule games against better teams in weaker conferences in the region and boost its QOWI with 12-,13-, 14- and 15-point non- conference wins (and this implies that the opponent will have at least an in-region percentage of .500), then they have done what the NCAA recommends. I really don’t know how to do it any other way. I don’t know how to make it consistent across the nation either.
In Texas and neighboring states, we have virtually no NAIA-2 schools. Also, the NAIA-1’s have 6-8 games under the belt when the NCAA allows the start of the D3 season. The better NAIA-1 programs in Texas and Oklahoma are more comparable to D2’s than to D3’s. I can think of no way to compare records in a division in which there are huge regional disparities in the same sports and across all sports.
If we use Augie in titanq’s reply #25 as the example, the high in-region percentage actually works to the advantage of the teams that defeat Augie, because they have a higher in-region percentage and a win over them is worth more on the QOWI index. (This is the way that Amherst and Williams can boost their QOWI’s, by defeating the top teams in weaker conference, but that is another topic.) Let’s imagine that Augie is 7-0 against in-region non-conference competition. That means that every win vs. an Augie team that finishes conference at least 7-7 is worth 14 or 15 QOWI points.
(I wish we could see Massey’s ratings comparing “D3-only” as well as “all games”. That might give a better perspective. However, I am wary of the mathematical boost effect that we see in the Massey style ratings…games amongst good teams in conferences in which there are no bad teams. That effect explains why the WIAC is so strong a conference and yet seldom has demonstarted that strength in football since the onset of the Pool System.)
Ralph, I think the WIAC’s record in football may be attributed to its region more than anything, and then there’s this year.
I think we can preserve the spirit of D-3 and encourage D-3 teams to play each other, and come up with a better system to compare teams across the region.
In mid-January, Massey will publish D-3 only rankings (but the SOS will include all games, but by that time it will be mostly D-3 in those calcs).
Needless to say, I’d still like a compelling reason for Kenyon to play Wright State.
I realize that what I’m about to say is a bit off the the subject, but this is a very interesting conversation and I’m getting a real education. I’d never heard of the Massey Ratings, so I looked them up and did a search for a few schools I’m familiar with. I was surprised to see that my alma mater, D3 Randolph-Macon, was ranked 3 spots ahead of the school my son now attends, D1 Fordham. If I had to bet on a game between those two schools I’d take Fordham and give you 20 points, in spite of the records of their respective records. I mean no disrespect to my alma mater, which has a fine basketball team, but this raises for me the question of the accuracy of those rankings.
Robooh – the early season Massey ratings do have some funny results – and those are not using MOV. In mid-Jan, the D-3 rankings will use MOV and all his formulas.
“You would rather play a game agianst a team that you will never see agian and that you will need to prepare for in a way that is likely different that any D3 game you are going to play all year rather than play a D3 game against a team you might see in the tournament later?”
And teams don’t have to prepare differently for games against a team like Emory & Henry, Grinnell, or Redlands? Lynchb urg played Liberty University earlier this year, we actually ended up preparing for them the same as we did for Guilford because they played similar styles. Then when we played Emory and Henry we had to prepare a special game plan just for that game because they play so differently.
This topic is much to do about nothing. If a DIII squad wants to take on a DI team, more power to them. If they believe it’s inappropriate, that’s fine, too. This isn’t a highly charged ethical issue. I appreciate the commentary and opinions offered, but there are bigger fish to fry.
Oh, and congrats to CMU on tonight’s win over DI Princeton.