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	<title>Comments on: Division I teams are using us</title>
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	<link>http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2005/11/03/division-i-teams-are-using-us/</link>
	<description>The daily dish on Division III basketball</description>
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		<title>By: etbu14</title>
		<link>http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2005/11/03/division-i-teams-are-using-us/comment-page-1/#comment-584</link>
		<dc:creator>etbu14</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2005 00:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=68#comment-584</guid>
		<description>D-I teams only use the D-IIIs that don&#039;t come ready to play. There are a host of schools that are a little nervous to schedule the Tigers. Playing a D-I, and beating them, is your chance to show everyone that you are D-I players as well. Anytime the Tigers play, it&#039;s D-I basketball. Rise to the challenge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D-I teams only use the D-IIIs that don&#8217;t come ready to play. There are a host of schools that are a little nervous to schedule the Tigers. Playing a D-I, and beating them, is your chance to show everyone that you are D-I players as well. Anytime the Tigers play, it&#8217;s D-I basketball. Rise to the challenge.</p>
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		<title>By: royhobbs9</title>
		<link>http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2005/11/03/division-i-teams-are-using-us/comment-page-1/#comment-583</link>
		<dc:creator>royhobbs9</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=68#comment-583</guid>
		<description>Sorry guys, but the argument that D1 teams are using D3 teams strikes me as absurd.  In fact, there are D1 coaches who are likely NEVER to schedule a D3 school again.  For example:  Navy, who lost to D3 Gettysburg last season... Holy Cross, who got spanked by Williams two seasons ago... Columbia, who almost dropped one to Stevens Tech 3-4 years ago... to name a few.  Also, Colgate used to play &quot;crosstown rival&quot; Hamilton each season, until Colgate was tired of taking the &quot;L&quot; each year... Granted, there are many D3&#039;s that cannot compete... But there are many who can.  You think anyone wants to play Amherst?  Hell, they could probably take UMass.  And I&#039;d bet my mortgage they&#039;d take out any Ivy.  D3 is better than you give credit for, folks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry guys, but the argument that D1 teams are using D3 teams strikes me as absurd.  In fact, there are D1 coaches who are likely NEVER to schedule a D3 school again.  For example:  Navy, who lost to D3 Gettysburg last season&#8230; Holy Cross, who got spanked by Williams two seasons ago&#8230; Columbia, who almost dropped one to Stevens Tech 3-4 years ago&#8230; to name a few.  Also, Colgate used to play &#8220;crosstown rival&#8221; Hamilton each season, until Colgate was tired of taking the &#8220;L&#8221; each year&#8230; Granted, there are many D3&#8242;s that cannot compete&#8230; But there are many who can.  You think anyone wants to play Amherst?  Hell, they could probably take UMass.  And I&#8217;d bet my mortgage they&#8217;d take out any Ivy.  D3 is better than you give credit for, folks.</p>
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		<title>By: warhawks55</title>
		<link>http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2005/11/03/division-i-teams-are-using-us/comment-page-1/#comment-582</link>
		<dc:creator>warhawks55</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=68#comment-582</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s important to go to the source with regards to this issue.  Ask the players what their position is and you might come to a different conclusion.  Many of these young guys have grown up following and idolizing players on these D-1 programs.  To give up one game in a season just to compete against a program you may have followed growing up more often than not would be well worth it for these kids.  The overall exposure for the program provides benefits beyond those that can be measured just by wins and losses.

Another issue that seems to be overlooked is the fact that there are a few high caliber players playing in Division 3 because they couldn&#039;t initially meet the academic requirements for a D1 program.  These kids are being provided an opportunity to compete against D1 programs and possibly make a positive impression that could lead to them transferring to a D1 program when they become academically eligible.  Obviously this may have a negative effect on any particular D3 program, but it does positively impact the student-athlete that would like to excel at a higher level.  This may not be the norm, but there are several exceptional D3 players who can play at the D1 level, they just need an opportunity.  Some players also develop late and may have been initially overlooked by D1 programs.  These exhibitions will give them additional exposure.

To say that D3 programs can&#039;t run their system  is not really true either.  One of the primary reasons that D1 schools want to schedule D3 schools is because they are more fundamentally sound and are able to run plays and sets that the all-star teams made up of former college players can&#039;t always provide.  It becomes more like the NBA all-star game and doesn&#039;t provide any positive feedback with regards to how players are progressing and developing.  Ultimately, D1 schools scheduling D3 exhibitions is beneficial to both parties involved, otherwise it wouldn&#039;t be taking place.  There is a greater statewide exposure (especially in WI) to the quality of D3 programs.  This is not to mention the appreciation the alumni have to be able to see their team compete and gain national exposure.  As a D3 alum myself, I can appreciate the chance to see my alma mater play against a nationally respected D1 program.  When all is said and done, what matters most is whether or not the student athletes value the opportunity to play against D1 teams.  My assumption would be that if you asked most D3 players, they would be definitively in favor of playing these D1 exhibitions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s important to go to the source with regards to this issue.  Ask the players what their position is and you might come to a different conclusion.  Many of these young guys have grown up following and idolizing players on these D-1 programs.  To give up one game in a season just to compete against a program you may have followed growing up more often than not would be well worth it for these kids.  The overall exposure for the program provides benefits beyond those that can be measured just by wins and losses.</p>
<p>Another issue that seems to be overlooked is the fact that there are a few high caliber players playing in Division 3 because they couldn&#8217;t initially meet the academic requirements for a D1 program.  These kids are being provided an opportunity to compete against D1 programs and possibly make a positive impression that could lead to them transferring to a D1 program when they become academically eligible.  Obviously this may have a negative effect on any particular D3 program, but it does positively impact the student-athlete that would like to excel at a higher level.  This may not be the norm, but there are several exceptional D3 players who can play at the D1 level, they just need an opportunity.  Some players also develop late and may have been initially overlooked by D1 programs.  These exhibitions will give them additional exposure.</p>
<p>To say that D3 programs can&#8217;t run their system  is not really true either.  One of the primary reasons that D1 schools want to schedule D3 schools is because they are more fundamentally sound and are able to run plays and sets that the all-star teams made up of former college players can&#8217;t always provide.  It becomes more like the NBA all-star game and doesn&#8217;t provide any positive feedback with regards to how players are progressing and developing.  Ultimately, D1 schools scheduling D3 exhibitions is beneficial to both parties involved, otherwise it wouldn&#8217;t be taking place.  There is a greater statewide exposure (especially in WI) to the quality of D3 programs.  This is not to mention the appreciation the alumni have to be able to see their team compete and gain national exposure.  As a D3 alum myself, I can appreciate the chance to see my alma mater play against a nationally respected D1 program.  When all is said and done, what matters most is whether or not the student athletes value the opportunity to play against D1 teams.  My assumption would be that if you asked most D3 players, they would be definitively in favor of playing these D1 exhibitions.</p>
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		<title>By: birdfan</title>
		<link>http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2005/11/03/division-i-teams-are-using-us/comment-page-1/#comment-581</link>
		<dc:creator>birdfan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=68#comment-581</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m just curious, I thought division 3 athletics were supposed to be about competing and about enhancing the educational experience for the student-athletes? Isn&#039;t the opportunity to play against a D1 opponent a great memory for players to have. I bet those guys from UIW might not have remembered playing some D3 non-league game, but I bet they&#039;ll remember every second of the game against Illinois for the rest of their lives. Just because D3 is the only division that doesn&#039;t offer scholarships doesn&#039;t mean players, teams and coaches shouldn&#039;t be doing everything they can to provide their players with the best experience they can. If you can make $3,000 off of one of those exhibition games that is a huge budget boost, it can be the difference between players having to pay for sneakers and travel suits out of their pocket or being able to provide it for them. It can help cover the cost of a team banquet at the end of the year so you can recognize your team and it&#039;s accomplishments. Is the NCAA wrong to make it count as a contest instead of a scrimmage, absolutely. You should have the option to have it count as a scrimmage/exhibition just like Division 2 programs do. Even though it does count as a regular game that doesn&#039;t mean we should deprive the student-athletes of the major benefits it will provide.  C you say in one of your posts that D3 athletics is about competition not about championships, I agree. But don&#039;t you think it&#039;s a valuable lesson for players to learn to compete against people that may be more talented. I think that&#039;s a pretty good life lesson, and since D3 athletics is about preparing student-athletes for life after they hang up their sneakers doesn&#039;t it provide a great learning experience. Just another opinion on the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just curious, I thought division 3 athletics were supposed to be about competing and about enhancing the educational experience for the student-athletes? Isn&#8217;t the opportunity to play against a D1 opponent a great memory for players to have. I bet those guys from UIW might not have remembered playing some D3 non-league game, but I bet they&#8217;ll remember every second of the game against Illinois for the rest of their lives. Just because D3 is the only division that doesn&#8217;t offer scholarships doesn&#8217;t mean players, teams and coaches shouldn&#8217;t be doing everything they can to provide their players with the best experience they can. If you can make $3,000 off of one of those exhibition games that is a huge budget boost, it can be the difference between players having to pay for sneakers and travel suits out of their pocket or being able to provide it for them. It can help cover the cost of a team banquet at the end of the year so you can recognize your team and it&#8217;s accomplishments. Is the NCAA wrong to make it count as a contest instead of a scrimmage, absolutely. You should have the option to have it count as a scrimmage/exhibition just like Division 2 programs do. Even though it does count as a regular game that doesn&#8217;t mean we should deprive the student-athletes of the major benefits it will provide.  C you say in one of your posts that D3 athletics is about competition not about championships, I agree. But don&#8217;t you think it&#8217;s a valuable lesson for players to learn to compete against people that may be more talented. I think that&#8217;s a pretty good life lesson, and since D3 athletics is about preparing student-athletes for life after they hang up their sneakers doesn&#8217;t it provide a great learning experience. Just another opinion on the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: Coach C</title>
		<link>http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2005/11/03/division-i-teams-are-using-us/comment-page-1/#comment-579</link>
		<dc:creator>Coach C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=68#comment-579</guid>
		<description>Q -

I would play the D3 games.  Who knows if the 10-15 team last year will be 10-15 this year or 15-10?  D3 members play D3 competition.  If you want to play an NAIAs, then join the NAIA.

IWU is clearly the exception, not the rule.  Most teams can get games that count for solid points.  And let&#039;s be honest, if you are in Pool C competition, the committee is going to look at that win (or loss) against Puget Sound, REGARDLESS of what the friggin book says.

And if I am Benedictine, I play the tough team.  I am a pretty good team and I think that I can beat most teams most nights.  Plus, even a close loss that nets me 6 points may help me beat a team later in the year for 9 points that I might otherwise have lost to.

D3 is supposed to be about competiton above championships.  if you are scheduling a season to try to get to the championships, then you are missing the point of the season.  You are playing to avoid 6 point losses rather than playing to net 9 point wins OR a win over a non-region team that will make you better later.

The current system sucks.  I can&#039;t deny that.  But the only way we have to change the system is to show by concrete, real world examples how the SOSI is a problem.  Avoiding the problem by scheduling NAIAs or playing fewer than 25 games will not cary any weight at all with th powers that be.

C</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Q -</p>
<p>I would play the D3 games.  Who knows if the 10-15 team last year will be 10-15 this year or 15-10?  D3 members play D3 competition.  If you want to play an NAIAs, then join the NAIA.</p>
<p>IWU is clearly the exception, not the rule.  Most teams can get games that count for solid points.  And let&#8217;s be honest, if you are in Pool C competition, the committee is going to look at that win (or loss) against Puget Sound, REGARDLESS of what the friggin book says.</p>
<p>And if I am Benedictine, I play the tough team.  I am a pretty good team and I think that I can beat most teams most nights.  Plus, even a close loss that nets me 6 points may help me beat a team later in the year for 9 points that I might otherwise have lost to.</p>
<p>D3 is supposed to be about competiton above championships.  if you are scheduling a season to try to get to the championships, then you are missing the point of the season.  You are playing to avoid 6 point losses rather than playing to net 9 point wins OR a win over a non-region team that will make you better later.</p>
<p>The current system sucks.  I can&#8217;t deny that.  But the only way we have to change the system is to show by concrete, real world examples how the SOSI is a problem.  Avoiding the problem by scheduling NAIAs or playing fewer than 25 games will not cary any weight at all with th powers that be.</p>
<p>C</p>
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		<title>By: titanq</title>
		<link>http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2005/11/03/division-i-teams-are-using-us/comment-page-1/#comment-580</link>
		<dc:creator>titanq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2005 00:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=68#comment-580</guid>
		<description>&quot;If the game you are giving up is the game that keeps you out of the tournament, then how good is that D1 experience?&quot;


Coach, I know with IWU that wasn&#039;t an issue.  Scott Trost can&#039;t find in-region games.  It was play the Illini or play another NAIA or D3 out-of-region team...and neither counts, so why not play U. of Illinois?

Three Midwest region teams on IWU&#039;s original 2005-06 schedule backed out of contracts, and I&#039;m not sure I blame them.  The current system has no subjectivity to it, so if you lose at IWU in a really tight game (like Aurora did last year), it is still a loss - 7 points in the QOWI.  Or if you are Benedictine and play IWU pretty tough at home but lose, which the Eagles did last year...6 points.  Why not go play a crap team and pick up 8 or 9 points in the QOWI with a win?  (And pick up an in-region win in the process instead of a loss.)

Under the current system, why would any team serious about getting in position for a Pool C bid play a national powerhouse in their region?  Does them no good, right?  That is what a lot of traditionally strong programs are up against.  IWU is playing 3 NAIA&#039;s this season - Olivet Nazarene, St. Xavier, and either Westmont or Berry.  The Titans have 2 D3 games that don&#039;t count - Texas-Dallas and Puget Sound.

Do you play U. of Illinois in a game that doesn&#039;t help you OR HURT YOU, or do you play a poor in-region D3 team that is going to cause your QOWI to fall even with a win?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If the game you are giving up is the game that keeps you out of the tournament, then how good is that D1 experience?&#8221;</p>
<p>Coach, I know with IWU that wasn&#8217;t an issue.  Scott Trost can&#8217;t find in-region games.  It was play the Illini or play another NAIA or D3 out-of-region team&#8230;and neither counts, so why not play U. of Illinois?</p>
<p>Three Midwest region teams on IWU&#8217;s original 2005-06 schedule backed out of contracts, and I&#8217;m not sure I blame them.  The current system has no subjectivity to it, so if you lose at IWU in a really tight game (like Aurora did last year), it is still a loss &#8211; 7 points in the QOWI.  Or if you are Benedictine and play IWU pretty tough at home but lose, which the Eagles did last year&#8230;6 points.  Why not go play a crap team and pick up 8 or 9 points in the QOWI with a win?  (And pick up an in-region win in the process instead of a loss.)</p>
<p>Under the current system, why would any team serious about getting in position for a Pool C bid play a national powerhouse in their region?  Does them no good, right?  That is what a lot of traditionally strong programs are up against.  IWU is playing 3 NAIA&#8217;s this season &#8211; Olivet Nazarene, St. Xavier, and either Westmont or Berry.  The Titans have 2 D3 games that don&#8217;t count &#8211; Texas-Dallas and Puget Sound.</p>
<p>Do you play U. of Illinois in a game that doesn&#8217;t help you OR HURT YOU, or do you play a poor in-region D3 team that is going to cause your QOWI to fall even with a win?</p>
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		<title>By: Coach C</title>
		<link>http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2005/11/03/division-i-teams-are-using-us/comment-page-1/#comment-578</link>
		<dc:creator>Coach C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=68#comment-578</guid>
		<description>narch -

I did the Citadel trip as an undergrad and it&#039;sa lot of fun, but I am not sure how much it helped the team!!

Funny story on the T.  Lots of guys who know better have gotten the same T.  He has nothing to be embarrassed about.

D1 depth is usually the thing that kills the D3 squads.  When they sb in the second 2 guard and he is STILL taller than your starting 4 man and faster than your point guard, that&#039;s when you know that while you might have kept it close for a while, that the night is over and it&#039;s time to stat thinking about what you are going to do after you sneak out following bed check.

C</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>narch -</p>
<p>I did the Citadel trip as an undergrad and it&#8217;sa lot of fun, but I am not sure how much it helped the team!!</p>
<p>Funny story on the T.  Lots of guys who know better have gotten the same T.  He has nothing to be embarrassed about.</p>
<p>D1 depth is usually the thing that kills the D3 squads.  When they sb in the second 2 guard and he is STILL taller than your starting 4 man and faster than your point guard, that&#8217;s when you know that while you might have kept it close for a while, that the night is over and it&#8217;s time to stat thinking about what you are going to do after you sneak out following bed check.</p>
<p>C</p>
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		<title>By: narch</title>
		<link>http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2005/11/03/division-i-teams-are-using-us/comment-page-1/#comment-577</link>
		<dc:creator>narch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=68#comment-577</guid>
		<description>coach c - my understanding is that the citadel paid for transportation, hotel and meals and the monarchs cleared 3+ grand - the team got to take a trip to charleston, they toured a pretty historic city and campus, and played in front of a bunch of rowdy cadets - oh, and arthur hatch, who had never played organized basketball (but ended up as one of the best shot-blockers in d3 history) got his first taste of college hoops...he got a tech for dunking in warm-ups and didn&#039;t report to the scorers table when he subbed in the first time (he didn&#039;t know that he couldn&#039;t dunk and had to check in, and our coaches didn&#039;t think to tell him otherwise...those aren&#039;t usually things you have to teach college basketball players) - the monarchs were down by 7, i think, at half when the citadel&#039;s superior size and, primarily, depth wore mc down - i think that trip was WELL WORTH IT for the monarchs</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>coach c &#8211; my understanding is that the citadel paid for transportation, hotel and meals and the monarchs cleared 3+ grand &#8211; the team got to take a trip to charleston, they toured a pretty historic city and campus, and played in front of a bunch of rowdy cadets &#8211; oh, and arthur hatch, who had never played organized basketball (but ended up as one of the best shot-blockers in d3 history) got his first taste of college hoops&#8230;he got a tech for dunking in warm-ups and didn&#8217;t report to the scorers table when he subbed in the first time (he didn&#8217;t know that he couldn&#8217;t dunk and had to check in, and our coaches didn&#8217;t think to tell him otherwise&#8230;those aren&#8217;t usually things you have to teach college basketball players) &#8211; the monarchs were down by 7, i think, at half when the citadel&#8217;s superior size and, primarily, depth wore mc down &#8211; i think that trip was WELL WORTH IT for the monarchs</p>
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		<title>By: Coach C</title>
		<link>http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2005/11/03/division-i-teams-are-using-us/comment-page-1/#comment-576</link>
		<dc:creator>Coach C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=68#comment-576</guid>
		<description>narch -

I appreciate your respect.  We disagree, but I think we have presented our points well and I respect your point of view as well.

On the money issue, how much profit is actually left after the trip to the Citadel?  After the buses and the hotel rooms and the meal money, Is there really a financial benefit to losing to one of the worst teams in D1?


CMU Hooper -

Have a few adult beverages before you posted?  Predicting a win over a D1 is brave or foolish, perhaps both.

C</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>narch -</p>
<p>I appreciate your respect.  We disagree, but I think we have presented our points well and I respect your point of view as well.</p>
<p>On the money issue, how much profit is actually left after the trip to the Citadel?  After the buses and the hotel rooms and the meal money, Is there really a financial benefit to losing to one of the worst teams in D1?</p>
<p>CMU Hooper -</p>
<p>Have a few adult beverages before you posted?  Predicting a win over a D1 is brave or foolish, perhaps both.</p>
<p>C</p>
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		<title>By: narch</title>
		<link>http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2005/11/03/division-i-teams-are-using-us/comment-page-1/#comment-575</link>
		<dc:creator>narch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 03:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=68#comment-575</guid>
		<description>i think you can still focus on the scholar AND take 3-4 grand from a d1...why do they HAVE to be mutually exclusive? must scholars also be paupers? :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think you can still focus on the scholar AND take 3-4 grand from a d1&#8230;why do they HAVE to be mutually exclusive? must scholars also be paupers? <img src='http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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