ATN Podcast: Boring? Not really

Mount Union's Kyle Miller; UW-Whitewater's Levell Copage
Yep. More purple. But is that a problem?

Alright, we’ve heard all the weeping and gnashing of teeth the past couple of days, and there’s certainly reason to talk about it. But, indeed, we’ve got Purple-Purple VI and that’s because they are the best two teams in Division III football.

Would it be better some other way? Pat Coleman and Keith McMillan each have their own takes on it in this week’s Around the Nation podcast.

Stagg Bowl XXXVIII could be the game remembered for its backup quarterbacks — Neal Seaman got knocked out of Saturday’s game early in the first quarter trying to make a stop on an interception and Matt Blanchard, well, who knows? Does it makes sense for UW-Whitewater to play Blanchard at this point even if he’s healthy? Will the Mount Union running game have a shot against UW-Whitewater’s defense?

Plus, a look forward at the rest of the weekend’s festivities in Salem.

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54 thoughts on “ATN Podcast: Boring? Not really

  1. Will there be a drawing for a free Salem Stagg Bowl triop this year? I was hoping this would be my year ….

  2. Excellent podcast!

    I was following the Wesley/UWW game via the internet so I wasn’t able to see a “play by play” but it sounds like it was a good game until the third quarter.

    The Bethel/UMU game was decided in the second quarter, particularly the fumble ensuing the go ahead touchdown. Football is such a game of momentum and, just when UMU was starting to move the ball, Bethel could not respond and turned over the ball on a fumble. Alot of football to play at that point but, the game turned to UMU favor and did not swing back.

    I look forward to further analysis of both teams and a great game on Saturday!

  3. I just wanted to throw this out there for anyone who doesnt get ESPNU. There are a couple things that I thought of. If you are a cable subscriber, you can pick up whatever level HAS espnu, and then get rid of it after the game. They will prorate you the cost of having the package for the time you did (probably 1-2 dollars). For me personally, I’m out of WI, and our cable provider actually gave it to me for free. Something about picking up the “sports tier package” makes my receiver free and those costs balance out.

  4. Pat..keith..thanks for the great podcast…..just to echo some of my thoughts from Sat……video feeds were great here in Utah…no problems……playoffs were really interesting this year……I am sure in my mind that the two best teams and two best coaching staffs are in Salam this weekend and I think that’s the way it should be!!! don’t understand all the whinning about who plays where!!! makes me think of the saying “you are what you earn”………..lets hope for some good football wheather in Salem on Sat………

  5. Great podcast guys – we had a great video stream for our indoor “tailgate” party on Saturday. Only wish they would show down and distance more often.
    Heading to Salem on Friday – this will be my 4th trip down there – the folks in Salem do an unbelievable job every year of making us feel welcome……maybe, with the exception of having to hide our beers in public – even after a 24 hour drive to the game last year, and having to stay in the “Mt Union hotel”.

    For those of you still thinking about going – DO IT !! These two teams have put on amazing performances for the last 5 years and I think this one will be one for the ages. Two outstanding defenses just standing in there and slugging it out against two outstanding offensive lines. One other thing to note – is the stadium is in a beautiful setting – especially as the sun starts to set. I have pictures from 2005 that are still on my screensaver – just because of the beauty of the sunset at the stadium.

    No one can say the Warhawks didn’t “earn” their way to Salem this year – for what it’s worth I honestly believe that North Central is the 3rd best team in D3 this year. I think playing against a team of NCC’s caliber on the road and beating them will pay divedends this week in Salem against Mt Union.

    To all you Warhawk and Mt Union fans – let’s keep it fun and remember to act like we’ve been there before – win with class and lose with class.

    Go Hawks !!!!

  6. Guys –
    Thanks for your comments and thanks for the coverage you give to DIII football.
    Adding to Keith’s remarks about consistent play, as a Bethel fan the thing I want to see most is consistent play from year to year. After the semi final run in 2007 BU was 5-5 in 2008. That’s the place where growth is needed for BU to advance as a program. (Someone mentioned in a blog over the weekend that UMU and UWW are able to recruit better players – yup, that’s a result of consistent winning year in and year out. BU is starting to make progress in that area.) My hope is that this year represents another step upward in that climb for consistency.

  7. I think both you and Keith need a new nickname so how about “A & B.” (as in “All Business”)? Good overview of the key facts, plays and players of the weekend. One objection I wasn’t surprised you overlooked is the “should these teams stay in DIII” question/argument but trust that conversation has been addressed over the years.

    That said, although we get the same two teams by name only, there are a lot of open questions going into Saturday that make this one a tough call.

    I enjoyed being able to watch Rossi’s call on the MU-Bethel game. Tuned in when it was 7-0 Royals, but as you all know it was pretty much all MU after that.

    Would be interested to get your take on this MU defense. They really seem like the key to the Raiders this season and will probably be the reason for Championship #11 in Purple Bowl VI.

    Hope everyone has a safe trip to Salem. Happy holidays!

  8. i haven’t had a chance to listen to the podcast yet so forgive me if this was addressed. Who will the announcers be for the television broadcast?

  9. TGP — I guess we don’t really address that argument because of all it entails. You can’t move just football to another division without moving all of your sports, which really make it infeasible.

    Especially for a WIAC school, since that is governed by state law prohibiting athletics scholarships at all but the current UW campuses (Madison, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Parkside non-football D2 — did I miss any?).

  10. I’d bet that WW or MU could compete with and even beat some pretty decent Div.II teams if they had a chance…….just something to wonder about while we look forward to Sat!

  11. Pat – aren’t certain schools doing that already? For example, isn’t Dayton University in Ohio DII for football and DI for basketball? I may be mistaken but I thought that was the case.

  12. No, that’s not the case. You cannot “play up” in football or basketball.

    A small number of D-III schools are grandfathered into Division I for certain sports, primarily ice hockey and lacrosse, but since the mid-90’s it has not been permitted for a D-I to play D-III football (Dayton was a prime example).

  13. Boring? Anything but boring! You have the two BEST teams in Division III football playing for the National Championship for the 6th straight year. The series is now at MU 3 and UWW 2. I don’t know how anyone could ligitimately call that boring.

    I can’t speak for Mt. Union, but I have witnessed the rise of Whitewater over the past decade. How did UWW do what others haven’t been able to accomplish?

    Here is what I believe made the difference:
    Whitewater invested heavily in their program and their facilities! The six years prior to UWW’s 1st Stagg Bowl appearance in 2005, their combined record was a pedestrian 32 wins and 28 losses (3-7,5-5,5-5,5-5,7-3,7-3). In 2001, UWW completed a huge addition to their athletic facilities which included a new fieldhouse, indoor track, racketball courts, and most importantly a amazing 12,000 sq. ft. weight room for their athletes.

    Now you combine the above with their incredible 12,000 seat Football Stadium, which has to be one of the most impressive stadiums in all of Division III football, why wouldn’t an athlete choose UWW. This stadium was originally built in the early 70’s and has been totally upgraded over the past 3 years, with new field turf, a large replay scoreboard, new bleachers, landscaping, etc…
    Also, UWW built a new Student Athletic Complex that overlooks the stadium. This facility houses the coaches offices, class rooms, computer labs, meeting rooms, and so forth for the athletes.
    If an athlete comes to UWW for a visit, they are not going to see a better athletic facility in all of Division III or possibly even Division II.

    Next look at where Whitewater is located. They’re 50 miles from Milwaukee, 50 miles from Madison, and 50 miles from the Chicago Suburbs. This puts them right in the middle of three major metropolitan areas to draw from. If you look at their roster, 80% of their players are from high schools that within a 50 to 70 miles radius of Whitewater. They are not getting blue chippers from all over the country like some people would like to think. They are developing solid division III kids from their own fruitful area.

    Success breeds success, but without the initial investments they made in 2001, I’m confident UWW would not be in the enviable position they are in today.

    Just a perspective from someone who has proudly watched the growth and success of the UWW football program.

  14. Per the moving up from D3… Pat is right that it won’t happen unless the entire athletics department follows suit. There are some teams like Johns Hopkins (lacrosse), Hartwick (men’s soccer and women’s polo), Colorado College (hockey), RPI (hockey), Rutgers-Newark (men’s volleyball), and St. Lawrence (hockey) (unless I missed others) that have been grandfathered into the rule. Harwick has talked several times of bringing the soccer program back to D3… only to have alumni and others do whatever they needed (like financially help out) to keep the program D1.

    Don’t expect programs like Mount Union (football) or Salisbury (lacrosse) to ever move their entire programs to D1 – I just don’t see a reason for them to do it across the board.

  15. Warhawk47- I’m going to disagree with you just a little bit. While the athletic program did start the process by adding the weight room facility, the football stadium has been there forever, so I don’t think that is what started the roll. I think the football team having success in 05-06 is what started things. The athletic program was then able to jump on the wagon and help propel not only the football team, but help the whole program by upgrading facilities and using that momentum to foster new initiatives. (ie advertising money from the football scoreboard paid for new scoreboards on other WW fields.)

    Lets also be honest that it helps immensely to have huge donors help move facility projects ahead.

  16. Pat….When I thought about whitewater or mount playing a Div.II school in football i meant just a one time thing.. maybe to fill an open date…..not moving their whole progams to another division……is that possible?

  17. Steelerbob — no, I understand. Others ask the question regularly, though.

    D3’s are allowed to play D2’s. It doesn’t help in the playoff selection process whatsoever, and of course, a D2 team has to be willing to take the game. It doesn’t help a D2 team qualify for its playoffs either, and the ones that would lose to MTU or UWW don’t want to schedule that kind of game, I am sure.

  18. I enjoy watching these two teams square off.

    Yet, a part of me wonders when/if other programs will rise from these regions.

    Every year it seems the final four is a combo of: MUC, UWW, MHB or Wesley. While the East has rotated its represenative leader, that quality seems to be largly absent in the South, North and West.

    Are there any programs on the rise that could pose a challenge in their respective regions – any thoughts on that?

  19. In the D2 discussion — re: playing once in a while, not the semi-ridiculous notion of moving your whole athletic program up as soon as one of your programs gets really good, rather than just enjoying being good — let’s not forget than in UW-W’s 2007 championship year, their only loss came to D2 St. Cloud State.

    http://www.d3football.com/teams/UW-Whitewater/2007/index

    And they got beat by a meh 4-7 SCSU team, and the school nearly dropped football a few years later. Safe to say that jumping to D2 would not be as easy it may sound. Whitewater is probably where it belongs.

    I never understand, re: coaching job changes but also division moves, why people are in such a rush to move on to a new challenge rather than enjoy the fruits of what they worked so hard to build.

  20. Thanks for the clarification Pat!

    I agree with your assessment Keith. Enjoy the fruits of your labor and recognize that it’s possible to achieve the status that UWW and UMU currently earned.

    Some of the talk revolves around respect in my opinion. DIII is viewed as the “weak sister” of NCAA football. If UMU or UWW could compete (and beat) DII teams then DIII might garner respect, more publicity, and more coverage by a major network (ESPN, etc.). Plus, some in DIII have besically thrown in the towel and assumed that their team will never beat either one so have them move on so others have a chance to compete in the Stagg Bowl.

    This is simply not the case. I remember when Averett played a home/away series with UMU. They got hammered both games but the coach indicated that it was a good experience for his players to see just what needed to be done to aspire to that next level. They were a competitive team but he saw the need to improve.

    I believe a feature was done this past year highlighting Averett and their improvement. Maybe a piece of that improvement was due to the 2006/2007 UMU series.

    Its always easy from the top to look back and say the roas wasnt too bad however, that would cheapen the hard work of many. Larry Kehres and Bob Berowitz (sp) did not inherit a powerhouse team. They worked very hard to build a foundation and grow in to the teams they are today. OThers can ( and will) follow. Until then, let’s understand that the two best teams in DIII meet Saturday to decide the championship!!

    Good luck to both teams (especially the Purple Raiders)!!!

  21. A few years back, I recall UWW spokesmen citing the willingness of UWW and Mount to schedule a home and home series that helped UWW Football “understand” what it takes – play the best, to be the best.

    Thus, Larry Kehres deserves a measure of credit for the WarHawks rise.

  22. Keith, I think you are overlooking a few things about the 2007 SCSU game that we (Whitewater)dropped. Athletically, we measured up adequately. They had a bit more size where you would expect it (on both sides of the line), and probably had time shaved off of their collective 40’s when compared to us.

    Other than that, we executed plays, clamped down on defense after stumbling out of the gate, and were in a position to win in the second half.

    If we did so well, why did we lose?
    We made uncharacteristic mistakes; we fumbled in and out of the red-zone (and they weren’t exactly forced- they were bad RB-QB exchanges and such) threw bad interceptions, dropped touchdown catches etc.
    It came down to an onside kick in the closing minute of the 4th, which we failed to convert.

    Not that SCSU is a great D2 team by any stretch, and all of these is hearsay, obviously, but one of my HS teammates that was playing at SCSU on a scholarship informed me that their staff was well aware of these things (post game)and considered themselves lucky to get out with a “W”.

    Not that your analysis was wrong; we did get beat to an VERY (if not, below) average D2 team. Just wanted to remind you that it was one of those games where a losing team leaves an opponent’s stadium telling themselves, “Wow, we really should have on that game”, and the winning side couldn’t say the same.

  23. I was at the St. Cloud State vs UWW game in 2007. UWW outplayed the Huskies but UWW fumbled 4 times and could not overcome the mistakes, and lost by 10.

  24. Apparently I cannot type on a desktop without typographical errors. My apologies for any eyes that were injured during that post.

  25. Keith……….when I brought up the subject of UWW or UMU playing an occasional game vs a DII team I wasn’t really suggesting anybody do that….it was just fun to imagine what if……i still think it would have more benefit than not….you haft to look past the end of your nose sometime!! Isn’t discussion great…..

  26. While conference rivalries certainly generate emotion, playing non-conference games (other than playoffs) can provide an appreciation for other programs, regions, etc.

    Unfortunately, in the OAC there are 10 teams and they are all required to play each other, leaving just one non-conference game to be scheduled.

    It won’t happen but, I would like to see conferences that have such a large membership rotate certain games and teams to allow a greater opportunity for non-conference opportunities.

    For example, if the OAC has ten teams, play 7 conference games and allow 3 non-conference games. Ties would be broken by various tiebreakers as are done routinely (head-to-head, common opponents, etc.)

    Logistically, it would be tough to balance schedules, etc. but it would certainly increase variety!!

  27. UWW vs MU Boring Game ?, NO the best two D3 teams will be playing in a great game.

    But

    UWW vs MU Boring Yes, what does this say about the D3 Football Championship as a whole ? It is getting boring, very boring, especially when you look at some of the lopsided scores in the early games. 49-0,60-0,57-10,53-14,59-7, 69-7. Yes there where several very good games but for the most part many of the games were duds.

    That being said, why are the same two teams playing year after year without a number of teams able to close the gap ? Rather than look at the teams let’s look at one teams’ “competitive” environment.
    UWW has a distinct advantage. Wisconsin has one D1A school(The University of Wisconsin). Any football player wishing to stay within the state has a very limited number of choices. If the player is unable to “make” the U W team, where does he go ? After UW, the player can select from 1 of 18 D 3 schools in Wisconsin (8 of which play in the WIAC). Of the 18 D3 Wisconsin teams 10 had losing records. Consequently, UWW gets to select the very best players from a state of approximately 6 million people. 49 of the 65 (75%) players listed on the D3 roster come from Wisconsin. Also,they have a number of Illinois players (12). As you can see UWW has a wealth of talent to chose from.

    Contrast this situation with Illinois. Illinois has 3 D1A schools, Illinois, Northwestern, Northern Illinois, 4 D1AA schools 6 NAIA schools and 19 D3 schools. Yes one can argue that the population of nearly 13 million produces a number of quality players but the competition for those players is great. Teams in Illinois and other states maybe hard pressed to fill a roster with two deep quality players. Due to limited time I was not able to look at the MU landscape but I suspect there may be similar circumstances.

  28. While I think there may be a slight geographic advantage with UWW, I’m not going to agree that it plays as large of a part as some people are suggesting. Lets look at any DIII school that is close to the Minn/WI boarder. Both states allow students to cross each boarder and still receive in-state tuition rates. While in contract, everyone of those Illinois players on the UWW roster are paying out of state tuition. Wouldn’t the schools that can better justify tuition rates from both state be at an advantage? Not to mention that UWW until recently has been subpar on the National level. With geography being the same, shouldn’t they have been a lot better in those years? Don’t get me wrong, their geography doesn’t HURT them, but I would be reluctant to say that there is an overwhelming reason UWW has had success the last few years. If the answer was easy, other teams would do everything they could to replicate it.

  29. The WIAC schools are pretty different from most of the other schools that play Div. III football. They are state schools. Most of the other schools are private schools, meaning higher tuition. Some are more “elite” than others, academically speaking, but even the less elite private schools probably couldn’t take every player a WIAC school can take, based on grades.

    Not to offend anyone or call anyone less than intelligent, because I do strongly support the student-first mentality of D-III. Just saying that if everyone went to college in their home state, the state schools have a bigger pool to recruit from than most of the private schools, especially the ones with specific faith requirements (e.g. Wheaton, Bethel) or particularly elite academic reputations (e.g. the NESCAC schools). This helps explain why a WIAC team is able to beat up on most of the other teams in the playoffs.

    For me, the real question is, why hasn’t another WIAC team been able to knock of Whitewater lately? Some of the previous posters with more intimate knowledge of UWWW have presented some nice answers.

  30. Division III is 75% private, 25% public. There are many other state schools other than the WIAC schools.

    Steelerbob: The largest full-time undergraduate enrollment in Division III is at NYU, a private school. The largest enrollment at a school with football is UW-Oshkosh. UW-Whitewater is in the top five for enrollment, but as has been said before, it’s not like UWW is hanging up fliers in the dorms and saying, open tryouts for football today! That’s why high schools are classified based on size but colleges are not.

    Whitewater is only two thousand or so larger than the largest Division III private school, Wash U.

  31. Responding to hamst64 concerning the state schools versus private school requirements. You are correct in your assumption that some kids that go to state schools could not get into some smaller exclusive private schools….but please don’t lump all the student athletes that attend UWW in to that group. Many of these kids have the academic prowess to not only attend those smaller schools, but to excel academically as well.

    It’s always frustrating to me when I hear the argument brought up about how big the WIAC schools are compared to other D3 schools – like that is an excuse for us to win. Let’s take that theory to the highest level – ever hear of Duke basketball – they have a very small enrollment by D1 standards (~6,500), and very high academic standards, yet year in and year out they compete for the championship. the size of the school does not determine the success of your program – that comes down to the players and coaches.

    That is why I am proud to say – okay… we have 11,000 students – so what – they weren’t all recruited to play football. We have excellent undergrad and graduate programs that appeal to a broad variety of these student athletes, and why not stay in state, get a great education , and play in the best football conference (top to bottom) in the country.

    Go Hawks !!

  32. I am curious how the top teams in DIII would fare versus the top two teams in NAIA (Sioux Falls and Carroll, a trad. power in MT.)? Any ideas how MU or UWW would stack up against these NAIA schools that offer scholarships but don’t appear to be as good athletically as (perhaps) their counterparts in DII?

    (I realize Sioux Falls is moving to DII next year …)

  33. It’s interesting to see the differences in leagues with state schools and ones with private schools……are we saying that the WIAC and MIAC schools don’t have a larger pool of propective athletes to draw from than smaller private schools?

  34. Not sure how the MIAC gets drawn into this but the basics are that student-athletes are recruited specifically to the school by athletics, not the other way around.

  35. warhawkfan – I was really trying *not* to lump all the UWWW players into the academically suspect category, but I guess I wasn’t emphatic enough. Nevertheless, let’s say, for example, that 5 out of the Warhawks’ 53-man roster could not have gotten into North Central based on grades/tests. Maybe another 5 could not have afforded the private tuition. That’s almost 20% of the roster that UWWW could have recruited that North Central could not have. (This assumes that they can recruit roughly the same geographic area, although in reality, NCC has only one player from Wis. and all but about 7 of the rest are from Ill.)

    I don’t really know much about the mentality of someone who wants to stay close to home for college, because that’s not who I was or am, but it seems to me that those who want to be close to home just for its own sake and not for the in-state tuition want to be *really* close to home, like within a couple hours. For those guys, UWWW isn’t recruiting against the likes of St. Cloud State, or maybe even Stout, River Falls or Eau Claire. I don’t know how many guys that applies to, just putting it out there.

    Pat – thanks for the numbers. Is that all of D-III, just football, or are they proportionately about the same? Regardless, the WIAC is sort of unique in being a full conference of state schools and in that there are no D-II, I-FCS or NAIA options in the state. Also some of the state schools are “public liberal arts colleges”, such as UM-Morris, which I would guess means they’re not recruiting exactly the same guys who might otherwise consider Bemidji, St. Cloud or Moorhead State. (I think UW-Stout might fall in that category too, though). Also, the public schools include Coast Guard, Merchant Marine, and the Maritime academies, which are pretty unique situations themselves.

    emma, yes, exactly. This is why I’m limiting my discussion to Whitewater, but clearly there are many factors in what makes a team dominant. Consider all my points to be points for discussion, and I may certainly be way off-base on all of them.

  36. I’m not sure the Duke analogy is applicable. Any analogy to Div. I will have to be tempered because of the fact that all Div. I programs offer scholarships and recruit nationally. I was also going to say something about the difference between football and basketball, but then I remembered how well Stanford did in Football this year.

  37. Several points:

    1) The reason that Mount Union and UWW have become such strong programs can be attributed to their record of success. When you can get the number of recruits that they do locally, you will have a lot of success.

    2) Do realize that the seniors at the two schools have played a lot more games than the competition.

    3) The presence of FBS programs in the state is not much of a factor. A Wisconsin high school graduate who could play for a FBS or FCS program will GENERALLY go that way. I know that there are exceptions, especially as some athletes transfer down.

    4) There is little incentive to schedule teams that are in higher divisions. First, you get no credit if you win; it counts as a loss if you lose. With the expansion of the Pioneer League, the inclusion of non-scholarship programs in the FCS playoffs, such games may be less available.

    In a perfect world, you could probably schedule more competitive games and the like. However, what school can afford all the travel costs.

    I would like to see free student admission at the playoff games. It might help to fill up the very empty stands.

  38. The only point I was trying to make in my above comment is there are LOTS of reasons WW and MU have had success. However, I think saying it had more to do with factors outside of football and recruiting is a disrespect to the players and coaches. I firmly believe the largest reason is success breeds success. WW having success helped give an already amazing coaching staff greater tools to work with to keep the ball moving. The athletic department then had better ammunition to support facility upgrades, which helps recruiting which helps win games. It’s a circle that has worked for 6 years. There is no saying it will stay like that for ever.

    Am I way off base on my thinking here?

  39. I played on the MU football field in 1982–in the marching band! The football team was not so good in those days and the school was fewer than 1000 students. Even though the student body has doubled since then, MU is still 1/5 the size of UWW. This fact alone makes their success against UWW all the more astounding. It is David vs. Goliath and here’s hoping that David pulls out another W!!

  40. Warhawk says:
    I firmly believe the largest reason is success breeds success.

    This is what I was trying to say in an earlier thread. I think at some level of that success everyone needs to get on board to get to the next level. What I mean by this is at WW they really got behind the program and built or refurbished facilities to make them state of the art at least at d3 level. The fans in turn have perpetuated this by filling the stands making it easier to fund and recruit. It is interesting but in my observation of Wheaton I see a program and a head coach that has been in the neighborhood of 175-15 over the last 13 years. Despite this success they seem to have only average fan support. Their facilities are fair but could be better. They share the weight room with the rest of the student body. To be honest with you I have no idea if that is the norm for most d3 programs, but I could see how if some or all these things were improved that it would help the already great coaching staff get them to an even higher level. Those are just my observations and there obviously is a lot of facts that I am not privy to.

  41. Success breeds success: absolutely agreed. But this is true for several other programs besides the purple powers. I guess I’m looking for small factors that might account for the little extra push those two programs have been able to achieve, what made them turn it up to 11, if you will. For Mount Union, it’s probably the long tradition of success. For Whitewater, given how fast they’ve done it, I was offering the possibility of a larger recruiting pool as one of many factors.

    About Wheaton’s fan support: yes, that always puzzled me. It could be that they’re successful in a lot of sports (men’s soccer won the national championship while I was on the football team), and that their student body comes from all over the country and even the world, not just places where football is big. Just a couple ideas. I don’t know what it’s like at places where the football team has its own weight room, but I doubt that’s much of a factor.

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