Well, it’s a fairly warm and really windy day here in Belton, Texas. Mount Union is already out to a 10-0 lead in Alliance.
Last night I was here for the UMHB pep rally, and I was amused to hear the … let’s call him the MC of the event, though he came off more like a preacher in tone and really fired people up. But I was intrigued by the claim of lack of respect by D3football.com. Guess they didn’t see our Triple Take this week.
Throwing the floor open. I’m dialing up here so I’m not going to be commenting much.
T Unit the ball obviously went 10 yards, a three year could have seen that, the pass interference was a terrible call that resulted in td’s. Yall didn’t make crap happen, that was given to you. I give props to the offense but overall I wasn’t really impressed with UWW. So what you’re not going to take your hat off to me because we have different opinions? I think differently than other people so therefore I’m not considered a “loyal fan” to umhb? Like I said, one of those days. I never blamed the game on the wind factor or the refs, but it certainly made life a whole lot easier for WW seeing that well over half of our pass plays are deep passes. I still stick by what I said. 8 out of 10 times. Today… just one of those days.
cru crushed –
Thanks a lot. Didn’t know that was already in the books. Is that in the just in the HS rule book or do you know if it’s the same for College and Pros too?
Always good to have a ref around. And I honestly have no idea what the call would be in your “war story.” Care to enlighten us?
Forgot to add this on the kick rule.
4. Thereafter, all players of team A (UMHB) become eligible to touch, recover or catch the kicked ball.
Any other touching by team A (UMHB) is illegal touching, a violation that, when the ball becomes dead gives the receiving team (UWW) the privilege of taking the ball at the spot of the violation.
WarhawkTrombone,
The rule I gave you is the NCAA rule. Texas HS football uses the NCAA rules with 38 exceptions. (that’s why people say that if you can ref in TX you can ref anywhere) In fact TX and Delaware (I think it’s DE) is the only 2 states that use the NCAA rule book for HS football. Everyone else uses HS Federation rules. The NFL has their own set of rules. This is why so many people get confused on football rulings. I have to explain this to a lot of coaches on the HS level, because they watch a lot of football on Sat and Sun but the rules are different on Friday.
texanfan,
I’m a UMHB fan as well. I thought the officiating today was pretty good. I agree the pass interference call was not a catchable ball and should not have been awarded to UWW. However, UMHB should have been called for interference and no call was made. However, the uncatchable interference call hurt UMHB and it did cost UMHB 7 POINTS but that is all I will give to the Cru.
I was impressed how UWW passed the ball into the wind and scored before halftime. That gave them confidence to begin the second half and it showed.
Texanfan…I’m not going to argue with you about it anymore because I totally agree with everyone else who has stated that the UMHB fans have been pretty good in backing up their reasons for their predictions…you just came on here and started complaining about how WW benefited and not how they dominated in the 2nd half…you said you aren’t blaming the refs…yet you do 2 straight times…I guess I don’t understand what you are complaining about then…take away the 14 points and WW still beats you by 2 TD’s…to say it was just one of those days did you mean it was just one of those days the last 3 years as well or can you admit that WW is just a great program…I can understand you being frustrated they have owned you RECORD wise the last 3 years…but the games usually are pretty close…at least last year…and lastly to say you weren’t impressed with WW really just makes your team look that much worse…give respect where it is due…and give your own team respect at the same time
mikem17…great post…
T_Unit14,
Most of what you say is true about today’s game. UWW is the better team but let’s not forget that the Cru gave UWW all they could handle last year at this time, 16-7. I disagree that 3 other WIAC schools are better. Even Justin Beaver said this after the Stagg Bowl last year, “UMHB is the toughest team UWW has played all year and they prepared us to win today.” Beaver gained 66 yrds on the Cru and he ran all over MUC and WIAC teams.
You guys are the National Champs and have been playing football a long time. UWW is a state school with over 8,000 students, which is larger than some D1 schools. UMHB is a private school with just over 2400 students. Tuition is $700.00 per semester hour. Remember, UMHB has been playing football for only 11 years, 99-26 record is not that bad, 2004 they beat MUC in a snow storm, in Alliance, went to the Stagg Bowl and lost 28-21. No, we are not as good as you YET, but that day will come. MUC has about the same number of students as UMHB but they have been around a long time.
I hope UWW wins next week. I will be watching and rooting for them. Again, the Cru has perpared you well, now go win it.
Cru…
Please don’t get me wrong…I truly do respect the program at UMHB…and I wasn’t really looking to knock them down in any way…I was more or less just trying to set texanfan straight as to at least giving respect to WW…everything you brought up and used against WW in your post is exactly what I have been asking others about and bringing up as well in the other forum thread…I don’t think that how long we have been playing football as long as we have makes a difference other then having a storied history compared to UMHB creating their “history” right now…there’s a reason we have played you the last 3 years…it’s because UMHB is talented and the best teams are the ones playing at the end of the season…and to say you are not as good as us “yet” might be true on the scoreboard…but really on the field the last few years, I’d almost say UMHB is just as good…and don’t think WW doesn’t take pride in knowing we are the only team UMHB has ever played that they have yet to beat…even in such a short amount of time…UMHB has already been to a national championship and beat mount union…2 things that 90% of the programs in D3 can’t say…again…just give the respect where it’s due…and back things up with facts and not just throwing around excuses…*not directed directly at you cru*
Warhawk Badger and Warhawk Trombone,
re: career rushing numbers
Any number we tout here, or at least I have in ATN, has been manually researched with the playoff numbers added in. It was actually not as hard to go back as you might think; most of the great runners in a season did not make or last very long in the playoffs, and going back much before the mid-90s, single-back offenses were not the norm, so one guy tended not to pile up all the numbers.
Beaver’s career mark was 6,544, IIRC. So I guess if he had played 5 games his freshman year, his mark would’ve been about 7,000-7,500. Not quite there with Kmic.
Kmic’s season this year also surpasses Beaver last year for best mark ever.
A lot of marks don’t include playoff numbers (pre-2002, I believe), but even when they do, D3 had shorter playoffs prior to the past four years … in the 28-team, Mount Union and the teams that made the Stagg often had first-round byes as 1 seeds.
So very rarely, except in the history of UWW and MUC, have fifteen game seasons even been played.
cru crushed, I hate when uninformed fans yell about enforcement of NFL rules at college games too 🙂 … I don’t know every rule either, but I also don’t mouth off about it like I do.
Also,
UMHB didn’t win in a snow storm in Alliance, or at least not how I remember it. It was snowing, but I wouldn’t call it a storm.
A nitpick, but also reminding me of how the further you get from the game, the better the story sounds.
I’ve still never seen a team gouge a good defense straight up the middle like that team in that 4th quarter though. Sick. Justin Bryson and Freddie Rollins were built for that (though I think Carter might have had a lot of carries that day)
I have cut-and-pasted a post by the ASC poster “headlinesman” concerning the second half kickoff. This is his account from the game.
“What I wanted to address, however, is the opening kickoff of the 2nd half. We all know the rule that says the ball has to travel 10 yards before a member of the kicking team can legally touch the ball. The Field Judge (FJ) (the guy with the F on his back) was straddling the 40 yd line, also known as the kicking team’s restraining liine. His main job is to make sure the ball travels 10 yards. Here’s where it gets hinky. Any restraining line is treated as a line, not as a plane, as the goal line is treated. A kicked ball, by rule, is deemed not to have crossed a line until it touches the ground, a player, or an official on or beyond that line. In all the confusion, you miay not have noticed, but the FJ had dropped his bean bag on the UMHB 39, signifying that being the spot where the kick first touched the ground. Of course, we all know that once the ball hit the ground, it looked like a Tiger Woods wedge shot, and shot back toward the UMHB goal line, so the ball, by rule, never crossed the restraining line, hence it never traveled the required 10 yards, hence when the CRU recovered, it constitited illegal touching, giving Whitewater the ball at the spot of the illegal touching. If the FJ was right, the call was absolutely correct, inasmuch as the home crowd protested.
“Some of the confusion occurred up in our part of the stands when some folks started sayint that the ball actually hit the ground at the 42, not the 39. If that were the case, then the ball crossed the restraining line, and the Cru should have been allowed to keep the ball. However, without replay, the only way to know will be to look at the game film much after the fact.”
Thanks to “headlinesman” for the report.
Just MY opinion you understand……….You all know I am a big time supporter of the CRU….and I take ever opportunity to say nice things about them…..go to all their games….etc.etc. MY truth is that Whitewater just beat the hell out of us yesterday !!! They were the better team (yesterday)…..two of the previous games we’ve played them….we should have won!!! the 7-3 contest here a few years back was a “heartbreaker”….missed assignments and Whitewater scored on the opening kickoff ….but we held them the rest of the game…..that was indeed a heartbreaker. Good luck to WW at the Stagg….
D3 Keith,
Glad you laugh about the “bow at the altar” stuff. You do a great job! Oh, oh now i’ll probably be accused at vicariously bowing at the altar!
T unit you’re not changing my mind. I respect WW just not really impressed with what I saw. WW played their best game all season and UMHB played their worst game all season except maybe Southern Oregon. Yall we’re the better team YESTERDAY. As far as other days, absolutely not.
“headlinesman” via Ralph –
Very nice, thank you for that explanation. I think that’s probably about as clear as it can be.
Keith-
Re: Career and Season numbers – I understand your points, but I’m still of the opinion that recent rushing/passing/etc. totals (from 2002, as you believe) should be treated differently than those without postseason added in. Not just because it’s “not fair,” but because of the changes in D-III postseason play. If a great rusher was on a “bad” team, he didn’t make the playoffs at all. If he’s on a great team, now he can get five more games, but years ago it would have only been four or three. I think those kinds of inconsistencies are why regular season and postseason records should be separate. I didn’t really like the “postseason counts” decision when it was made and that’s my main reason.
However, then we could talk about historical styles, the way the game was played 20 years ago vs. now, can you really compare a great rusher from the ’80s to a great rusher from today, etc. Then we get into the huge debate similar to what baseball was in a year or two ago; should Barry Bonds’s records count the same as Babe Ruth’s and Hank Aaron’s?
I realize things won’t change, and I’m ok with that. Just voicing a little frustration with that very, very small aspect of the system.
BTW, I wasn’t trying to knock Kmic down at all or trying to say Beaver was light years better. I know Kmic is more dominant (at least numbers-wise), I just wish we could be comparing apples to apples across the board.
If you doubt how good Kmic really is, just compare his regular season yards versus his playoff yards. If Kehres wanted to pad stats and fed Nate the ball in the regular season 30+ times a game, he’d be approaching 10,000 career yards rushing.
REGULAR SEASON:
Year Yards. Games Yds/Game
2005 179 5 35.8
2006 1,378 10 137.8
2007 991 10 99.1
2008 1,640 10 164.0
Total 4,188 35 119.7
PLAYOFFS:
Year Yards Games Yds/Game
2005 1,040 5 208.0
2006 987 5 197.8
2007 709 5 141.8
2008 1,062 4 265.5
Total 3,798 19 199.9
What I still find amazing is that he didn’t get his first varsity carry until mid-season, didn’t crack the 2 deep until the end of the regular season and didn’t make his first start until the ’05 playoffs his freshman year. And he only started because of an injury to the 1st Team All-OAC running back ahead of him.
Sorry about the column formatting of the post above. It looked good before it was posted………..
WW played their best game all season and UMHB played their worst game all season except maybe Southern Oregon. Yall we’re the better team YESTERDAY. As far as other days, absolutely not.
So exactly how many games did you see WW play this year that you know this was their “best game” and that it was the cru’s “worst game”?
I can understand that since you lost you would say this…but its far from the truth…it’s hard to play a good game when you are out classed by the other team by so much…I personally think we played our worst game of the season yesterday but we just caught so many breaks from the refs I guess they handed us the game *rolls eyes…walks away*
texanfan,
You need to let it go and stop being a sore loser. UWW got it done and we did not, bottom line. How many games have you seen UWW play this year? Must be several since you posted they played the best game of the year. I agree UMHB was flat and UWW did cause some of that. However, after the opening kickoff mistake, the batted ball that Anderson caught, and Tucker’s injury, I had a bad feeling it would not be UMHB’s day. Also, the big 3 picked UMHB to win as well, and that surprised me and caused me to worry.
UMHB is not going anywhere, they will be in the thick of things again next year, hopefully. We have to worry about Hardin-Simmons because they are loaded for next year as well. I think HSU could have beat Wesley and W&J. It’s a shame they pair us TX teams up so early.
I will be in front of the TV next week (NEW 42 in LCD, SWEET) watching the Stagg with the volume turned down. I will pull up the UWW announcers on the web and listen in. I cannot tolerate Pam Ward for another year, that women is clueless. Good luck UWW. I hope you get it done.
Ok, MUC posters, keep it real this week, you guys are tough but let’s be respectful. I am interested in the comments that will appear this week.
T_Unit14,
You are correct. I just meant that we have to defeat UWW to get to the Stagg for a chance to become the Champs, you have been in the way the past 2 years. I hope we get our RB back from injury, Quincy Daniels is a All American RB, it would have been nice to have had him all year, he would have put up big rushing numbers.
We have beat the MOUNT, we just need to get it done against UWW.
I’m late to this game. I was at the UMHB/WW game yesterday.
1. The Wind was the MVP. UMHB has played in wind before. We’re used to it in Belton. But not wind like that. I was one of the ones screaming that it hit at the 42 instead of the 39 on the 2nd half kickoff. But….if it hit at the 39, it hit at the 39. Still never saw anything like that before. In a way, it was a shame for both teams. The wind became a bigger opponent than the other team at times. Whitewater got ahead and was able to take advantage of it. But, that was UMHB’s fault, too.
2. If there was no wind – WW was still going to win that game. Without our running back and quarterback healthy, we stood no chance. Whitewater was the best coached team we faced BY FAR. They found our weakness (a defensive back who never played the ball all season) and just exploited it. Without the wind, Whitewater would have completed at least 4 long passes downfield.
3. Whitewater was the best tackling team in Division 3 I have ever seen. Our backs would run forward and then just stop. There was no “yardage after contact” or falling forward for a first down. The WW linebackers were like a brick wall.
Whitewater was big and they were fast. They deserved to win. I’d like to play it again though. A less windy day with a healthy QB and Running back for the whole game.
CentexCoog,
I agree, remember they are the Champs and that’s what Champs do. If we had Quincy Daniels and a healthy QB I think it would have been closer, but we didn’t. Maybe we will find out next year.
I agree that the UWW QB was the difference he completed some amazing passes into the wind, you have to give him credit. UWW had little success running, they got some junk yardage late in the 4th, the QB only made one bad throw and that was in the 1st qtr, if our LB could have caught that ball he had a TD.
CentexCoog,
On the kickoff…. Did you see the ball hit the ground at the 42? I could not see it from where I was on the sideline.
cru crushed…if you had Daniels, if the QB didn’t get hurt, if the LB caught the ball…if, if, if…!!! Seems like UMHB’s success depends on a lot of if’s.
Agreed, Donovan was a difference, but certainly not the only one – the UWW defense dominated the cru offense…
…if only the wind wasn’t blowing…!!!
As previously stated, my OPINION is that be were soundly beaten on Satuday! So, come on guys…..can’t we give it up?……….”if’s” only REALLY count for the CLOSE games…..this one was NOT close after the half…. GO CRU …there’s only about 9 months before we “tee it up” again….the CRU will be back…count on it………
type-o “we” were soundly…..
In the local paper, it said the ball hit at the 38. But, tonight on the news, they had the UMHB coach talking about instant replay and that play in particular….and the news said it hit at the 42. I’ll admit that I thought it hit at the 42…….but I wouldn’t state my life on it. I was just in amazement by the whole play.
Thing is, the more I check into it, the more it doesn’t matter. If nobody touched it at the 42 and it bounced backwards (back over the 40) then it’s illegal touching.
And for all of those griping about the “what if’s” and the “if only’s”….. isn’t that part of what this is all about? I believe the Cru was out-coached and unprepared – but without most of their offensive talent, I think it was a shell of a team out there. I think it’s a shame (for us) that we didn’t get to play with a full deck. That’s football. It just stinks.
Except for our defensive backs. That’s why I think we lose to them if all the “what if’s” are fulfilled. Our defensive backs don’t turn around and look for the ball. Half the time the ball hits them in the back of the helmet and everybody says “good play”. The other half, they get a pass interference call and everybody gripes at the ref. Drives me absolutely insane.
nathanshin,
I was doing some brainstorming for crying out loud. Settle down dude! Geeze!!! I have said many times UWW was the better team. Go to the Stagg and win it. I’m puling for the the Warhawks. I’m even muting the ESPN broadcasters (Pam Ward is clueless) and will listen to UWW’s. However I will stick by my prediction on the other board; because of the skill positions.
MUC 41
UWW 28
I hope I’m wrong!!!
Well, here is the story in the local paper. The photos show the ball hitting on the 41, should have been UMHB’s ball at the 24. However, I think UWW would have won anyway, but closer score. Big momentum change on that play, UWW scored on the next play.
http://www.tdtnews.com/story/2008/12/16/54432
I’m trying to find the video on the web relating to the 2nd half kickoff.
nathanshin, before you start going crazy and losing your mind; above I said UWW would win. You have to admit that it was a momentum changer.
Good work Cru Crushed…..I was so astounded by the “flight of the ball” that I really didn’t “capture” where it first touched the ground. Now we know that all those in the stands that were screaming were right!! Guess I just don’t understand how the officials missed that call….one of them should have had the “sole” responsibility of making sure it traveled 10 yards. That “god awful call” coupled with the call on the “un-catchable” ball really put us in a hole. Not to re-open old wounds….but you’ve got to ask yourself…would the outcome have been any different??….who knows…possibly…one should never underestimate MOMENTUM (or the lack of it)….
Nathanshin,
I agree with cru crushed——-UWW probably would have won anyways. The video showed the ball hitting at the 41 yard line———officials blew the call and the bad pass interference call that gave UWW the ball at the UMHB 2 yd line———-the ball landed on the track———–it wouldn’t have mattered if UMHB had interfered with the receiver or not, there was no way he was going to catch that———–again, blown call and by the same official I might add. It sure seemed strange how they huddled up on the field for a moment————-the worst part was the Headline judge is the one that first stated where it landed———-he is on the UWW sideline————the ball was closer to the UMHB sideline. Would it have changed the outcome———–I doubt it BUT it sure swung the momentum in UWW’s favor BIG TIME
The officials stated they were prepared to stake their reputation on the call they made on the kick-off——————bad call!
CaptainCru ,
Take away the 14 pts off bad calls UWW-25 UMHB 13. By the way, it’s not un-commen for officials to huddle around. That is the only way the referee can get everyone’s opinion and who saw what.
Looks like the ball did hit at the 41 or so (hard to tell from the photos, but I trust the game film evaluation). No doubt this had an impact on momentum-to open the half. However………..
I know UMHB fans are tempering their comments about it being the game changing play, but there is a lot of focus on it, here and in the referenced article. And when you focus on one play like that, you tend to lose focus, and even some common sense, with what the rest of the game actually looked and played like.
Following are some excerpts from the Temple Daily Telegram that may help UMHB fans come to grips with the entire game, rather than the opening kick-off of the second half:
“While UMHB never had a drive of more than 30 yards after Saenz’s second-quarter touchdown, UW-W had the Crusaders’ defense flummoxed all day and put together four drives of 55 yards or more.”
“The march featured six completions by angular UW-W quarterback Jeff Donovan, who took advantage of several lapses in coverage – the last of which resulted in an easy 3-yard touchdown toss to tight end Nick Slupski and a 12-10 halftime advantage.”
”When you’re facing a good team like Whitewater, sometimes bad stuff happens,” senior defensive tackle Mark Balderas said. “You just have to keep your composure.”
“The Crusaders ran for just 125 yards, about 150 below their average.”
”We have to judge everything on the physicality of our guys,” he said. “If there was a smidgen of difference in the game, that’s what it was. I would see our running backs and our quarterbacks getting really hit. We tackled, but they really punished you.”
The Cru is better than a botched kick off. I know because I was at the semi-final game last year. The Cru will be ready to lay claim to the championship when they can play through these bad calls/tough breaks, and take care of the rest of the game, which is really where it was won and lost.
Cru crushed,
I know————-I am an official also. I love seeing a great football game and UWW is a great football team———I take nothing away from them. UWW wasn’t really able to do to much in the first half———–I am responding to the physicality statements that MikeM 17 mentioned and that were reported in the paper by coach Fredenburg. Momentum is an awfully big thing—————it can do a lot to a teams morale. Take away the 14 points from 2 bad calls and it’s a 25-13 game and not so out of reach anymore. Momentum ways heavy on a teams mind and performance I believe. Would it still have made a difference————-Probably not but then again, who knows. To have a team score 2 quick touchdowns like that and that quick really damages a teams morale. True———–a true championship team has to overcome those when the odds seem insurmountable———–it does make it difficult. Look at it this way also. The pass interference call————-take that away and UWW has a 4th and 7———probably kicks the field goal and is only up 21-10——–to much to overcome(NO) instead it is 25-10 and then add the botched kick-off call————who knows and what-ifs? I just hate to see 2 great teams play a game with controversy involved. Despite what UWW fans might say or think, UMHB got hosed on 2 calls that really affected that game BIG TIME. Not saying it would have changed the final outcome but it could have made a big difference in the game. Overall, I say it boiled down to UMHB being a one-dimensional team and it came back to bite them in the end.
Captain Cru: “Take away the 14 points from 2 bad calls and it’s a 25-13 game and not so out of reach anymore.” I agree,….falling behind like that caused the CRU to attempt to “get back in it” through passing…..not their “strong suit”. “We” passed 27 times during that game ….in the previous 3 playoff games we only passed 35 times total! Were it not for the “bad” calls it is quite possible that the Cru would have stayed on their game plan, worked on the clock, stayed on the ground and made a game of it. Instead, they had to play catch-up football.